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PostPosted: Fri 07 Apr 2023 5:17 pm 
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silmeth wrote:
I think you misunderstood me. Of course it’s 3rd sg. form of the copula. What form of a verb (OIr. copula is unstressed, so it’s a clitic, but it still has most of its old verbal paradigm, so it also still behaves somewhat as a verb at that point) do you use with a singular 3rd person noun subject? The 3rd sg. form. There was no other form of the copula that would be somehow “subjectless”. So obviously is dorcha in adaig uses the same form as is fer(-som) ‘he is a man’. This does not mean that in the former case the copula contains a subject pronoun in any meaningful way. It doesn’t! It’s not it is dark, the night, it is just the night is dark. The 3rd sg. form of the copula agrees in number and person with the subject but does not contain it.

Now, Old Irish doesn’t have subject pronouns, so of course whenever you want to say ‘it is dark’, you just say is dorcha – and here the subject is hidden in the same copular form. But that’s only because the subject is a pronoun (and explicit subject pronouns are not a thing of Old Irish).

EDIT: It’s the same with “normal” accented verbs: do·beir in fer claideb dam is ‘the man gives a sword to me’ and not ‘he gives me a sword, the man’. The verb just agrees with the subject, doesn’t “contain” it. But of course, if you remove in fer, then the sentence becomes “(s)he gives me a sword” – because now no subject is explicitly expressed.


The reason this interests me is based on the requirements of dependency parsing. According to Universal Dependencies guidelines, verbs can act like this, but a copula is an auxiliary and cannot. This is because a copula cannot be the head of any dependent words. It is perceived as a supplementary word itself, governed by the predicate which is the head of the clause. By contrast, where a verb is used, it is the head of the clause and all other words in the clause are its dependents (direct or not).

The result is that dependencies in phrases like amal nondafrecṅdirccsa "for that I am present" are unintuitive to say the least. The construction is amal (SCONJ) no (PART) nda (AUX) frecṅdircc (ADJ) sa (PRON), where the emphatic pronoun sa emphasises the subject, and the empty particle no is used only to create the nasalising relative clause which affects the copula. According to UD, the emphasising pronoun and empty particle are dependents of the predicate, which is an adjective, even though the emphatic pronoun actually refers to the subject which is only expressed by the copula. If this were a verb it wouldn't be a problem, because we could say sa is dependent on the verb.

One solution would be to say that, actually, in constructions without an overt subject, the "copula" is in fact a verb, operating in a manner comparable to the substantive verb. But this seems very out of line with both the traditional grammar of the language and with the diachronic development of the Irish copula.

Another potential solution, which I prefer, is to treat the copula in cases like this, as if it were the subject rather than the copula. If its relation to the predicate was as a subject primarily, rather than primarily as a copula, then it could take dependents. However, others suggest that to do this it would have to be POS tagged as a pronoun rather than as an auxiliary.


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PostPosted: Fri 07 Apr 2023 6:11 pm 
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Ade wrote:
One solution would be to say that, actually, in constructions without an overt subject, the "copula" is in fact a verb, operating in a manner comparable to the substantive verb. But this seems very out of line with both the traditional grammar of the language and with the diachronic development of the Irish copula.


I don’t know what Universal Dependencies require, never heard of them before, and I’m no structuralist and never did any dependency grammar (and in general, I don’t like strict linguistic frameworks; from stuff I’ve read about, Construction Grammar makes most sense to me so far…). So what follows might not make any sense… but I’d approach it differently, I think.

I’d try to treat copula + the predicative as a single verb-like unit bearing stress. In is fer-som the whole is fer is the “stressed verb” on which -som depends. Similarly in is fer in rí the subject in rí follows the “verb” is fer.

The copula being basically a clitic turning nominals into “verbs”. And those whole copula + predicative stress units then behave like intransitive verbs.


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PostPosted: Fri 07 Apr 2023 7:40 pm 
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I don't think theories of universal grammar are of as much relevance to language learning as knowledge of the actual language concerned. I would say the copula is a verb. Claims that it is not a verb or that it might just be a particle may be of interest to academics, but have little value for learners of a language. Much of what passes for academic research revolves around semantic categories (shall we define X as this? or shall we define Y as that? and then once we have asserted those definitions, shall we then reanalyse the language on the basis of our semantic definitions?) in a way that is fundamentally not interesting and ultimately circular and self-referential.


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PostPosted: Tue 11 Apr 2023 7:09 pm 
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djwebb2021 wrote:
What about this:
Cad é an t-am é? - what's the time? with the copula.
Tá sé a seacht a chlog - it's 7 o'clock, with the substantive verb.

Isn't it odd that the question has the copula and the answer has "tá"? Although the noun is not the same ("am" doesn't appear in the answer). How does this affect the discussion?


No such oddness in Ulster, where it's 'Cad é an t-am atá sé?' Neither FGB nor de Bhaldraithe gives this version, but An Foclóir Nua does.


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PostPosted: Tue 11 Apr 2023 7:14 pm 
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Errigal wrote:
An Foclóir Nua does.



It's hard to trust that dictionary as it indexes from anything published in Irish whether the speaker was native, or competent. It's full of mistakes and direct translations from English without any regard to Irish syntax or semantics (it very often uses the present tense for future situations, for instance).


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PostPosted: Tue 11 Apr 2023 9:43 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
Errigal wrote:
An Foclóir Nua does.



It's hard to trust that dictionary as it indexes from anything published in Irish whether the speaker was native, or competent. It's full of mistakes and direct translations from English without any regard to Irish syntax or semantics (it very often uses the present tense for future situations, for instance).


Okay, can you give us some examples of those then. Anyway, ‘Cad é an/cén t-am atá sé?’ is what they say in Donegal.


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PostPosted: Wed 12 Apr 2023 5:22 pm 
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Errigal wrote:

Okay, can you give us some examples of those then. Anyway, ‘Cad é an/cén t-am atá sé?’ is what they say in Donegal.


From a list a friend of mine has compiled (and keeps adding to every time he finds them):

Quote:
"everybody get down! gabhaigí síos, gach duine!"
, where 'gach duine' just doesn't make sense. You're addressing them, so you'd need the vocative: 'a dhaoine'.

Quote:
"anamchara" is given as a translation of "soulmate"


Quote:
Ireland take on Scotland on Saturday beidh Éire ag dul i ngleic le hAlbain ar an Satharn, beidh Éire ag imirt in aghaidh na hAlban ar an Satharn, beidh Éire agus Albain á fhéachaint le chéile ar an Satharn


Should be Dé Satharn, as it's a single Saturday (see CO 20017 1.1.5)

There's also lack of consistency in how it uses certain things, often in contrast to the standard form. For instance, it often mixes the direct/indirect relatives when used after 'uair' (which, granted, can be done in dialects but it should be direct in the CO). It's very inconsistent and doesn't even follow the caighdeán. Then there's lots of times where it directly contradicts de Bhaldraithte and Ó Dónall (looking at you, 'uiscebhealach'), though that's more the Coiste Téarmaíochta not giving a rat's ass about traditional Irish semantics/syntax and just calquing than anything.

But, the fact that it pulls from non-native sources for a dictionary is a cardinal sin in any language. That'd be like using my French to help compile a French dictionary, despite my semantics and understanding being based on English.


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PostPosted: Wed 12 Apr 2023 5:37 pm 
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Wow! I'd never heard of this dictionary, but that "gach duine" thing is dreadful. Some good points there, Galaxyrocker. The NuaChorpas na hÉireann violates all basic academic principles by including works by non-natives. Corpora of English or any other language don't do this. Of course, they do this because they're promoting a standard largely used by L2 speakers, and if you remove works by L2 speakers then you're deleting from the corpas the vast majority of the texts. If you create a corpas based on L1 speakers only (I mean Gaeltacht L1 speakers, not neo-natives of the "Standard"), then a large proportion of that will not be in the "Standard"... This problem all stems from the decision to create a made-up standard. The obvious thing - the stark raving obvious thing - would be to make Conamara Irish the Standard, but the Gaeltacht minister can't think that far, it seems.


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PostPosted: Wed 12 Apr 2023 8:57 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:

From a list a friend of mine has compiled (and keeps adding to every time he finds them):

Quote:
"everybody get down! gabhaigí síos, gach duine!"
, where 'gach duine' just doesn't make sense. You're addressing them, so you'd need the vocative: 'a dhaoine'.


Strange, I don't know if the vocative a dhaoine really rings of an imperative to me, much less one directed specifically at "everybody". Maybe a dhaoine uile? But something about the vocative seems too polite to me to constitute an order.

:??:

djwebb2021 wrote:
The obvious thing - the stark raving obvious thing - would be to make Conamara Irish the Standard, but the Gaeltacht minister can't think that far, it seems.


Not for love of the caighdeán, but this has to be a hard pass from me. As it would be for any one dialect over the others.


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PostPosted: Wed 12 Apr 2023 9:03 pm 
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Ade wrote:
Not for love of the caighdeán, but this has to be a hard pass from me. As it would be for any one dialect over the others.

Then you're openly supporting a fake standard made up by a committee.


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