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PostPosted: Wed 27 Nov 2013 1:34 pm 
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Braoin wrote:
Tá a gcuid leabhar á léamh acu = They are reading their books.
Tá a chuid ceapairí á n-ithe acu. = They are eating his sandwiches.
Tá a cuid ceapairí á n-ithe acu = They are eating her sandwiches.
Tá na ceapairí á n-ithe = The sandwiches are being eaten.
Tá a gcuid ceapairí á n-ithe acu = They are eating their sandwiches.

Cailín agus a tuismitheoirí = a girl and her parents
Buachaill agus a thuismitheoirí = A boy and his parents
a dtuismitheoirí = their parents
ár dtuismitheoirí = our parents
(most times 'na tuismitheoirí' is said = 'the parents' with the context being understood)

the same applies to
a chapall = his horse
a capall = her horse
a gcapall = their horse
ár gcapall = our horse
etc.

There is a certain Wombat on this forum who is an absolute star at explaining all of this - there's where I'd start, a chara.
Mick has it explained already, so I am sorry for the cross!!


So, considering a statement like "Dath oráiste atá ar a gúna," I know that we're talking about a girl because of (the absence of) lenition, right? That is, "a" is possessive, but because it's gúna and not ghúna, I know that its feminine and not masculine ( Cailín agus a tuismitheoirí = a girl and her parents Buachaill agus a thuismitheoirí = A boy and his parents)?

EDIT:

For example...

Dath fionn atá ar ár gcuid gruaige. Color blonde is on our hair.

Dath fionn atá ar a chuid gruaige. Color blonde is on his hair.

Dath fionn atá ar mo chuid gruaige. Color blonde is on my hair.

Dath fionn atá ar a gcuid gruaige. Color blonde is on their hair.

Yah?


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PostPosted: Wed 27 Nov 2013 2:53 pm 
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Yeah. :)

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PostPosted: Wed 27 Nov 2013 3:39 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Yeah. :)


Yay!


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Nov 2013 3:02 pm 
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Arg.

As I understand it, a preposition plus the definite article will trigger an eclipses of the noun that follows it.

E.g. "Dath bándearg atá ar an gcrios."

But I am told that the following does not trigger eclipses: "Dath donn atá ar an teach."

Why is that? Is there gender at play here or something? I thought it would be "Dath donn atá ar an dteach."


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Nov 2013 4:37 pm 
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It's because most dialects don't eclipse t and d after article + preposition. Although in Munster Irish t and d are eclipsed as well.

ar an dtigh = on the house (tigh is the Munster words for house).

It would take a little bit more detail to explain why most dialects don't eclipse t and d in this case, if you're interested in knowing just ask.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2013 1:35 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
It's because most dialects don't eclipse t and d after article + preposition. Although in Munster Irish t and d are eclipsed as well.

ar an dtigh = on the house (tigh is the Munster words for house).

It would take a little bit more detail to explain why most dialects don't eclipse t and d in this case, if you're interested in knowing just ask.


I am interested, thanks.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2013 9:08 pm 
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Something to do with the historic beginnings of the urú (voicing/nasalisation at work boundaries).

P and f would become b and v, i.e. 'fear', 'ar an bhfear' (the n of an changing the f, as it were).

In the same vein, so to speak:

c --> g, corn (ag an gcorn)

p --> b, post (ar an bpost).

b, and g were 'nasalised' (made into m and g)
b --> m, bobailín (as an mbobailín)

m was already nasalised and v/w arose from another process

Irish had no z (having fell in with slender r in prehistory)

l, n, and r were no amenable to change

Th and dh had disappeared by the late Middle Irish period (I think; classical period anyways)

That left d, t, s. They, along with l/n/r, th/dhand z, are all coronal consonants as the tongue tip (or 'crown') is needed to produce them. Since the n of 'an' was/is 'tip of the tongue' and both came into contact, and due to fast speech, the voicing/nasalisation was resisted (ar an doras not ar an ndoras. (This form has arisen in Kerry Irish by analogy as anyways the n doesn't need to be pronounced today))

I think in the genitive plural, the article was 'am', so it would have been 'ar (n)am ndoras (in the old days no strong plurals, or very few anyways)

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2013 9:18 pm 
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Basically:

ar/ag/as etc AN [Noun] = ar/ag/as an mbord etc

(except for l/n/r/ng, v/w, z/th/dh (as they were already voiced/nasalised and/or did not exist))

and since the article was 'an' and n is tip of the tongue and t/d/s are tip of the tongue too, they kind of got 'stuck together' and the change didn't happen

ag an sagart
ag an doras
ag an tarbh

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2013 9:32 pm 
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As an aside, one way of thinking of urú and seimhiú is to imagine being in a huge warehouse and measuring just how far the sounds of one's mouth travel. For some sounds (like the 'a' in father) they will travel far and for other (like the 'th' in cloth) they will not, so if you made up a language full of vowels, the listener (or echo) would /respond/rebound from further ahead (maybe this is why whistle languages develop in valleys)

In a list format, this is called 'levels of sonorancy' and is roughly like so:

á, ú, ó etc
r, l, n, ng
w, y
z, zh, dh,
d, g
t, th, f

Urú in a sense, raises the sound and the process of lenition softens it down the scale, till eventually it disappears between vowels and the circle is complete and it gets all mystical and become one with the universe and stuff

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