Apathy towards Irish

Redwolf · **Posted:** Sat 21 Apr 2012 5:42 pm

Féabar wrote:

I think part of the problem in Irish is that many of us (me included) end up writing and reading Irish better and better. Our attentions are focused there as that is available to us and we neglect speaking it. As time goes by we're more and more uncomfortable with how little we speak so perhaps we speak it less and less. Hence we really can't say "Tá an nGhaeilge agam". What we should say is maybe "Thig liom í a scriobh agus leamh". Of course I want to be able to read and write the language, but that is very very secondary in my quest. it is of the most importance to me to speak it. I can pick up spelling as I go along in the language by reading what others more knowledgeable than me post, but I'm desperate to have conversation to grow in the language. I've been pretty faithful to have limited conversations all this scholastic year with a couple of friends. I went last week to an immersion weekend and I spoke in broken Irish most of the weekend. As you know (from conversations you and I have had) I've centered the conversations this year around a couple of basic books and it is working! It is a method that will in time expand my/our speaking. We read the stories aloud to each other alternating paragraphs and then go back changing what we read while the other translates. Then we question each other about little events in the books. I'm willing to do this with anyone who cares to, but at my level I'm just not able to carry a conversation about "politics" or whatever. When we learners speak with each other it is very important to not "over-correct". It becomes like the dog that is always flinching because it is afraid of being hit again. Correction needs to be very balanced. Object one is to try to understand what is being said and answer back intelligibly. As an example, I was conversing with a lady this past weekend (a fluent Munster speaker) and we were having a good conversation in Irish. She asked me what sort of farm I live on. I answered her "Eallach" as that is the Ulster word that I know from being in Donegal and I do not know any other word. The conversation abruptly stopped as she explained IN ENGLISH that she uses a different word because she speaks Munster Irish so on and so forth (all reverting to English). That is part of the problem. She should have just noted my word, tried to understand what I was saying and moved on with the conversation. I do not understand the propensity for most basic Irish speakers to continually correct each other. It is very destructive on some level. I think all the dialects with their own idioms also confuse and complicates the language at the learner level. Of course it makes the language "rich", but you sort of have to learn three languages at once. Right now, I'm just trying to get a basic way down to express any thought in my head, and I'm trying to understand what is being said to me by any speaker. I am trying first to just learn to spell in CO because I need to get one thing down. Many conversations (on this forum) end up heated and (in my humble opinion anyway) swirling around such statements and I may be mistaken, but such heated debates really do not seem very encouraging or inspiring for me to just learn and speak more of the language. Much time is spent arguing about a language and its future and the language is not yet even our own. (other than maybe Bríd). I always try to completely focus and learn from Bríd because I think she's the only native speaker in this forum and we're blessed to have her here. I might give Lughaidh a close second from his apparent time living in Ireland and dedication to Gaoth Dobhair Irish (if I ever want to have a conversation with Mairéad ní Mhonaigh I'll need to know a bit of that LOL). I enjoy watching the Irish on Gaelige Amháin because you can watch many speakers and note how things are expressed by them. I don't know that I've ever seen a lot of correcting going on there, but you can pick up the right way by looking closely at how people respond to you, etc. People you know to be more knowledgeable than yourself post things that you can learn from. So in summary, maybe it is not an Apathy towards Irish problem, but an environment that focuses on the wrong things (perfection being one among many). I think perfection often gets in the way of just real good. And maybe "perfect" Irish is getting in the way of everyone just having "good acceptable spoken Irish". Who knows? A great bit of our problem in learning is because there just isn't much interaction with fluent or native speakers from whom we can pick up the "right way". Anyway....that's some of my thoughts this Saturday morning. How tragic I cannot say these thoughts yet in Irish. Lá éigin! Idirlinn.... bíonn mé ag obair liom. :nail:

There's a lot of truth here, particularly for those of us who live outside of Ireland. I'm in a very similar case, in that I learned Irish for the first two years almost entirely as a written language (I didn't even have access to TG4 until I'd been learning for four years, and it wasn't generally worth my while to listen to RnaG because during the time I was free to listen, they were doing that "Anocht FM" evening show, in which most of the music was in English). By the time I connected with a live teacher, I was already reading and writing on an intermediate level, and had a good grasp of basic grammar, but could barely string two sentences together in speech (though, surprisingly, I had little difficulty understanding the spoken word...somehow my brain had made the phonetic connection, most likely from singing in Irish). My ability to speak Irish still lags well behind my ability to read, write, and understand it.

The trouble with most convo groups is they're not really targeted enough for learners. Most of us really aren't able to hold our own in general chit-chat. It's nice to be able to come prepared to talk ABOUT something...a book we've all read, or something like that.

Redwolf

Saoirse · **Posted:** Sat 21 Apr 2012 5:49 pm

Somhairle Óg wrote:

Im changing this though, I speak everyday with my fiance and am starting a course soon, then plan to do a course in the Gaeltacht this summer/ autumn to really get speaking. Jumping in and speaking with out fear of mistakes is what its about for me, and what I need to do more off to get fluent conversational Irish.

I see that you are based in Dublin - Conradh na Gaeilge is on your door step. You can access Irish speaking people any time you are in town. There are lots of Irish language events around the place if you keep an eye out.

Interestingly, my situation is the opposite to many here. I could speak reasonably well about a lot of things (not the heavy duty stuff). Depending on who I'm listening to, I can understand very well or very little - dialect, speed etc. My grammar has never been given the attention it deserves - so the rules aren't there the way they should be. As I have mentioned before, I had a soft learning ground. My husband and I used our Irish around a baby which gave us time to get used to talking without that fear of constant correction a few people have mentioned here. That baby is now seven and brings home new words to us from school!

Breandán · **Posted:** Sun 22 Apr 2012 11:45 am

Féabar wrote:

Lá éigin! Idir an dá linn.... beidh mé ag obair liom. :nail:

Corrections are valuable feedback, Faber. Learn from them.

Féabar · **Posted:** Sun 22 Apr 2012 1:47 pm

Brendan: I may read more into your comment than you intend, but your tone seems to infer that I don't value corrections and that I don't make an effort to learn from them. Neither is true. Let me be clear that I appreciate any effort you or another gives me to correct me and help me along in the language. Spelling corrections are important, but always of secondary importance to me (whether that's right or wrong) in my quest to speak fluidly. I know you are a busy guy with a young family, and I appreciate the time, effort, and sacrifice you put into this forum. You don't have to do any of this, but you choose to do it and it is appreciated. I usually don't appreciate the corrections in simple spelling as much as I do those in word usage and syntax. The correction of my "Ciarán" post may have been important because someone might have named their child and spelled it incorrectly because of my post (probably not though because most Anglophones don't use accent marks when giving a child a name). Regardless of that these present corrections are very important structurally for me as a speaker. In your corrections of what I have written you show "idirlinn" to be an error when Potafocal shows it as the word for "meanwhile". http://potafocal.com/Search.aspx?Text=idirlinn I do not know the word, so I looked it up to create my post. It would be helpful for me to understand why the dictionary "idirlinn" is not right and "idir an dá linn" is. I certainly believe you because I've heard my teacher from Dún Phadraig saying "meanwhile" exactly as you expressed it, but then when I went to look it up that expression wasn't there. Back to the topic at hand, that's the sort of multiplicity of linguistic information that perhaps creates some of the frustration and perhaps eventual apathy that is discussed in the thread.

Idir an dá linn, if I am wanting to express "meanwhile, I'm working away" why would I use the future tense to express a habitual present thought? I know the future and I could have used it, but I was wanting to express a different thought. Again, this is a welcomed correction because I need to know how to express what I am wanting to express. As you know, this language is still somewhat new to me in the long scheme of things and you and the others here have years and years of study on me. I appreciate the patience you all have with me. I'm also way older than most of you so it's harder for me to stick this stuff to m'intinn. I am now 56.

Idir an dá linn (agus "idirlinn" de réir ar Photafocal, ach anois níl mé ró-cinnte) beidh mé (agus bíonn mé agus bím maybe) ag obair liom. :ninja:

Oh bhuel..... rachaidh mé ar ais an clár dubh agus clár bán (if using dry marker erasers). :GRMA:

Braoin · **Joined:** Sat 17 Sep 2011 11:52 pm **Posts:** 460

Féabar wrote:

I am now 56.

Idir an dá linn (agus "idirlinn" de réir ar Photafocal, ach anois níl mé ró-cinnte) beidh mé (agus bíonn mé agus bím maybe) ag obair liom. :ninja:

Oh bhuel..... rachaidh mé ar ais an clár dubh agus clár bán (if using dry marker erasers). :GRMA:

hi féabar
san idirlinn = in the meanwhile/meantime
idir an dá linn = meanwhile - much the same as above but this one is the one I have heard and used most
bíonn mé ag obair - is ok, but I always heard bím ag obair since the cradle... and is the one I would give in translations

... idir mise agus tú féin tá dhá bhliain eadrainn beirt a chara ach ná hinis do dhuine ar bith é

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

bíonn mé ag obair - is ok, but I always heard bím ag obair since the cradle... and is the one I would give in translations

"bíonn mé" is used in Donegal, as well as "bí(o)m" (the m is broad).

Breandán · **Posted:** Sun 22 Apr 2012 2:50 pm

Féabar wrote:

I usually don't appreciate the corrections in simple spelling (like correcting my spelling of Ciarán in a fast moving exchange ) as much as I do those in word usage and syntax.

There are often others who will benefit by seeing the correction even if you don't. Remember this is an open forum and so you aren't the only one reading my posts. Lots of other learners will read it and learn from it. If I leave it unattended, others might assume that the incorrect spelling is correct.

I wouldn't pull you up in a conversation to correct your pronunciation unless the error was repetitive and actually interfering more with the conversation than stopping to correct it would, or if the mistake meant something other than what you intended.

In a written exchange, no matter how fast, you can always go back and review the corrections at your leisure.

I disagree that spelling is unimportant - often incorrect spelling indicates incorrect pronunciation and other times simply that you are not paying attention to the topic. Using correct spelling helps you remember the grammar and often leaving out a letter can change the meaning significantly.

If it isn't important to you, then please ignore it, but you may actually remember the correct spelling just by seeing it.

Féabar wrote:

In your corrections of what I have written you show "idirlinn" to be an error when Potafocal shows it as the word for "meanwhile". http://potafocal.com/Search.aspx?Text=idirlinn I do not know the word, so I looked it up to create my post. It would be helpful for me to understand why the dictionary "idirlinn" is not right and "idir an dá linn" is.

I think the headwords in those potafocal entries are incorrect. Idirlinn is a noun meaning "interval", but looking closely at the entries themselves, we see that each contains san idirlinn "in the interval/interim". That, i.e., san idirlinn, is what has the meaning "meanwhile", not just idirlinn.

(Ah, Braoin answered that while I was typing.)

Féabar wrote:

Idir an dá linn, if I am wanting to express "meanwhile, I'm working away" why would I use the future tense to express a habitual present thought? I know the future and I could have used it, but I was wanting to express a different thought. Again, this is a welcomed correction because I need to know how to express what I am wanting to express. As you know, this language is still somewhat new to me in the long scheme of things and you and the others here have years and years of study on me. I appreciate the patience you all have with me. I'm also way older than most of you so it's harder for me to stick this stuff to m'intinn. I am now 56.

I'm only ten years behind you.

Braoin has disagreed with me and I accept that I may be wrong (or it could be that both are possible). However, I will explain my reasoning. On its own, bím/bíom/bíonn mé ag obair liom is fine but since you have stated idir an dá linn and here the dá linn is "now" and "a future point", the future tense feels more appropriate. There is no future habitual so the simple future is applied.

Another thing to remember is that we often use the present habitual in English to express a future mood. "I'm going there tomorrow" really means "I will go there tomorrow". I think Irish would prefer Beidh mé ag dul ann amárach rather than Tá mé ag dul ann amárach, though the latter might not be wrong. However, bíonn mé ag dul ann amárach* wouldn't work.

And always remember, my corrections are also subject to correction.

Mick · **Joined:** Fri 18 Nov 2011 2:27 pm **Posts:** 622

I have a friend who is great at giving subtle corrections without interrupting the conversation.

Mise: Táim tuirse (Me: I'm tiredness)
Seisean: Tá tú TUIRSEACH? An raibh tú ag obair inniu? (Him: You are TIRED? Were you working today?

Correction made, but I'm immediately prompted to keep talking.

Aislingeach · **Posted:** Sun 22 Apr 2012 3:25 pm

Mick wrote:

I have a friend who is great at giving subtle corrections without interrupting the conversation.

Mise: Táim tuirse (Me: I'm tiredness)
Seisean: Tá tú TUIRSEACH? An raibh tú ag obair inniu? (Him: You are TIRED? Were you working today?

Correction made, but I'm immediately prompted to keep talking.

That's exactly how I used to "correct" my children's English when they were very young. Some feedback containing the correct word, tense, pronunciation, whatever, then move on. Works well, and keeps their egos intact. :yes:

Braoin · **Joined:** Sat 17 Sep 2011 11:52 pm **Posts:** 460

Aislingeach wrote:

Mick wrote:

I have a friend who is great at giving subtle corrections without interrupting the conversation.

Mise: Táim tuirse (Me: I'm tiredness)
Seisean: Tá tú TUIRSEACH? An raibh tú ag obair inniu? (Him: You are TIRED? Were you working today?

Correction made, but I'm immediately prompted to keep talking.

That's exactly how I used to "correct" my children's English when they were very young. Some feedback containing the correct word, tense, pronunciation, whatever, then move on. Works well, and keeps their egos intact. :yes:

That is the only way to do it. We have a weekly conversation in the local pub where everyone is welcome and if anyone has grammar issues that is how they are dealt with - the conversation is not interrupted and the speaker hears the correct version back quietly and without making a fuss. No embarrassment. I cannot see a need to stop a conversation to 'correct' someone's Gaeilge unless asked specifically to do so. As in English, and even more so in Irish, we have to be open to differences in dialect and to be honest most of the time I don't even notice once I understand what a speaker is saying - and usually there is little difficulty as it is the same language.
Your friend has it right!

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