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 Post subject: Distinct Dative Forms
PostPosted: Wed 26 Jun 2019 4:58 pm 
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Is there any collection or list of Irish nouns with distinct dative forms?

Nouns like Éire with distinct a dative form, Éirinn, are something I'm trying to work on at the moment. I know a lot of commonly used nouns ended up having fossilised dative forms like this, but how can I know which ones without going to a dictionary and finding out for each noun on an individual basis?

I notice that the grammar application on [url=https://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/Éire]tanglann.ie[/url] gives neither dative nor vocative forms, even where distinct forms exist.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.


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PostPosted: Wed 26 Jun 2019 8:45 pm 
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I don’t know if there is a complete list, but most of the nouns whose datives somehow remain are mostly regular – and only those of the second and fifth declension, those of the 2nd declension (having genitive in -e) are formed by the palatalization of the nominative ending (or dropping the -e from the genitive): bróg, leis an mbróig, teach, sa (d)tigh, fearg, i bhfeirg, lámh, ar mo láimh… and those of the 5th if their genitive ends in -d or -n, have the dative form being a genitive singular with palatalized ending: cara, leis an gcaraid, abha, san abhainn, Éire, in Éirinn.

Some of those use the dative today instead of the nominative (eg. tigh in Munster; abhainn everywhere), so if you see a nominative ending in -igh, -aid, -ainn, etc., chances are it’s an old dative, especially if the genitive ends in -e (also -í from older -ighe, 2nd declension) or in a broad consonant (-ad, -an(n), 5th declension).

Some other forms one commonly encounters, but mostly in proverbs, I think, are bean, mnaoi; ceann, cionn; fear, fior; , boin; , – but that’s certainly not exhaustive.

See the page about dative on GnaG.


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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul 2019 6:23 am 
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I think Éire is the only one recognised as having a distinct dative-singular form in Standard Irish.

You should be able to find a list in 'An Caighdeán Oifigiúil'.

The native language is a different story, altogether, especially in Munster.

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PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul 2019 9:16 pm 
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Thanks, slimeth and Cionnfhaolach for the insights (and links).

Might be an interesting (and very useful project) to try and collect these in one repository/dictionary.


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PostPosted: Mon 08 Jul 2019 12:05 pm 
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Quote:
I think Éire is the only one recognised as having a distinct dative-singular form in Standard Irish.


There's also bos, bróg, cluas, cos and lámh, cf New Irish Grammar p. 46.

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PostPosted: Tue 09 Jul 2019 9:07 pm 
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I've been collecting them as I come across them, with some examples of usage. Here's what I have thus far:

bean

thar mnáibh -- above all women
idir mhnáibh -- among women

bos
dhá bhois = dhá bhos
i mbois a láimhe -- in the palm of his hand

bróg
dhá bhroig = dhá bhróg

ceann
i gcionn [i gceann] -- at the end of
os cionn -- above
thar cionn -- excellent
cionn is go -- because
Cionn tSáile -- Kinsale

ciall
rud a chur i gcéill -- to make something clear

cian
céin a bhí anam ann -- while there was life in him
i gcéin is i congar -- far and near
ó chianaibh -- a while ago

cluas
dhá chluais = dhá chluas
i do chluais -- in your ear

cos
dhá chois = dhá chos
faoi chois -- underfoot
cois -- along
i gcois -- beside
de chois -- at the foot of
lena cois -- beside her
lena chois sin -- besides that

crann
chrannaibh [pl.]
chuir siad ar chrannaibh é -- they drew lots

Éire
in Éirinn -- in Ireland

fear
leis na fearaibh -- with the men

fuinneog
dhá fhuinneoig = dhá fhuinneog

Gaeilge
Gaoidhealg = nominative [out of use]
Gaeilge = genitive
Gaeilg = dative [used in Ulster]

lámh
dhá laimh = dhá lámha
rud a chur [i/ar] láimh -- to take something in hand
as láimh -- immediately

mall
ar na mallaibh -- of late

muc
muic -- pig
example?

teach
dul i dtigh diabhail -- to go to hell

uair
ar uairibh -- at times / occasionally

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PostPosted: Wed 10 Jul 2019 6:05 pm 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:
bos
dhá bhois = dhá bhos
[...]
cluas
dhá chluais = dhá chluas
[...]

cos
dhá chois = dhá chos

[...]

fuinneog
dhá fhuinneoig = dhá fhuinneog

[...]


This isn't really dative singular but nominative dual.

Dative singular and nominative dual forms are usually the same.

(exception: fiche: dual = genitive singular: dhá fhichead ~ daichead. dative singular = metering plural: fichid.)


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PostPosted: Thu 11 Jul 2019 9:21 am 
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As for dative plural – they are very regular, always end in -ibh or -íbh (and the ending is cognate to Latin dat.pl. -ibus, and thus a cognate to the word busomnibus ‘for all’, perhaps this way of travel should be called bh in Irish :LOL:):

fé chosaibh
idir mnáibh
leis na fearaibh
ar uairibh
marcachaibh
beannachtaibh (hence I’d guess also Gaeltachtaibh, or in old spelling Gaedhealtachtaibh, although I cannot find any examples… I guess the usage of Gaeltacht in plural is too modern an invention)
cailíníbh
coiníníbh
buaibh (dat.pl. of ‘cow’)

Not sure how alive it is today (I’d guess it’s pretty much dead because of the lack of the form Gaeltachtaibh anywhere), but Peadar Ua Laoghaire, at the beginning of 20th century used dat.pl. regularly, I think for all the nouns.

Also, many Connacht plurals (all of the -annaí ones) come from dat.pl. – they pronounced the -aibh ending as -aí (and in Old Irish -an(n) was already a plural ending, so modern Connacht forms have three plural endings one on top of another: bus-ann-a-í).


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PostPosted: Thu 11 Jul 2019 4:30 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
I think Éire is the only one recognised as having a distinct dative-singular form in Standard Irish.


There's also bos, bróg, cluas, cos and lámh, cf New Irish Grammar p. 46.


I thought so too, but the new Standard doesn't even list these.

These are the same words with special dual forms in the old Standard also, but again, the new standard doesn't list them.

As you probably know, the dative, palatal form of these words, láimh, cois, bróig, bois, has superseded the nominative in most native speech--as is the case with most feminine palatal nouns of the second declension (á-stem): aimsir, muintir, gualainn etc...

Cian

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PostPosted: Thu 11 Jul 2019 5:52 pm 
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CaoimhínSF wrote:

ceann
i gcionn [i gceann] -- at the end of
os cionn -- above
thar cionn -- excellent
cionn is go -- because
Cionn tSáile -- Kinsale

ciall
rud a chur i gcéill -- to make something clear

cian
céin a bhí anam ann -- while there was life in him
i gcéin is i congar -- far and near
ó chianaibh -- a while ago

cos
faoi chois -- underfoot
cois -- along
i gcois -- beside
de chois -- at the foot of
lena cois -- beside her
lena chois sin -- besides that

crann
chuir siad ar chrannaibh é -- they drew lots

lámh
as láimh -- immediately

mall
ar na mallaibh -- of late

uair
ar uairibh -- at times / occasionally


These are also set phrases, whereby the dative forms remain petrified, rather than being used independently. To these you can add i ndáiríribh and i(na) (g)c(h)oinnibh, and others.

silmeth wrote:
beannachtaibh (hence I’d guess also Gaeltachtaibh, or in old spelling Gaedhealtachtaibh, although I cannot find any examples… I guess the usage of Gaeltacht in plural is too modern an invention)


The dative plural is Gaeltachtaíbh, and beannachtaíbh is also a variant form.

silmeth wrote:
Not sure how alive it is today (I’d guess it’s pretty much dead because of the lack of the form Gaeltachtaibh anywhere), but Peadar Ua Laoghaire, at the beginning of 20th century used dat.pl. regularly, I think for all the nouns.


The dative plural can be still heard in Munster (particularly Cork), but no where near as common as Peadar Ó Laoighaire's usage. Even Peadar Ua Laoghaire's usage in his own day was seen as somewhat archaic, as speakers would often comment how Peadar's Irish would remind them of the Irish of their parents and grandparents.

The strict usage of the dative plural/ singular began to die out in Munster following the famine, and began to pick up pace after 1880s.

The best speakers of Munster Irish largely retained the dative singular and plural, however, as can be seen by listening to the Munster speakers on Doegen, and by reading the folklore literature, especially from Cork.

As the dative plural began to die in Munster, the same phenomenon that occurred in Connacht-as you have already mentioned--of the dative plural termination spreading to the nominative plural also occurred; especially in East Cork and Kerry. Hence, why you'll find fearaibh and ceannaibh as alternative nominative plurals.

The dative singular still remains to a certain extent in Munster also, especially with words ending in a nasal genitive: teanga (dat. teagain), guala (dat. gualainn), bó (dat. boin); and with words like fuinneog (dat. fuinneoig) and cloch (dat. cloich). The dative features less so with words like talamh (dat. talúin/ talamh). The masculine dative doesn't survive except with lá (dat. ló: insa ló, don ló) [also survives in Connacht] and with set, prepositional phrases using cionn (as it does everywhere else). Even in the case of the survival of ló, this may also be the result of formulaic set phrasing, as insa ló really means 'daily': ocht (n-)euro insa ló 'eight euros a day/ daily; and don ló, is really part of the phrase: don ló amáireach 'tomorrow': e.g. cad athá ar siúl agat 'what are you doing (for the day) tomorrow'.

Again, like the other dialects, the dative singular feminine has largely replaced the nominative. Even in the case of lámh, cos, cluas, bos, and bróg, the dative form can also be used as the nominative: i.e. láimh, cois, cluais, bois, and bróig.

Personally, I always always use the dative, both plural and singular.

silmeth wrote:
Also, many Connacht plurals (all of the -annaí ones) come from dat.pl. – they pronounced the -aibh ending as -aí


The lengthening of the -í is caused by the devoicing of the lenited -b, a process known as compensatory lengthening.

Old Irish: scélaigecht /sc'e:lig'əxt/ --> scéalaigheacht /s'ce:liɣəxt/--> scéalaíocht /s'ce:li:əxt/

Cian

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