I'm just learning basic Irish (traveling there next year!) and in the meantime, I've been considering a tattoo based on a family motto. According to some historical records my grandpa has, it was an Irish motto but replaced with the Latin: "Virtute [et] Fideque", which translates to "Virtue and Loyalty" or "By virtue and loyalty" ("fideque" is from "fides" which is also sometimes translated as "faith"...)

I like the idea of this as a tattoo, but want to make sure the Irish is right. So far we think this would be the best translation:
Bhua agus Dílseacht

It's tricky because of the Latin ablative (ugh, I hated Latin in school and I hate it now!) but I'd love to know:
1. Is that really correct?
2. Is there a *more* correct translation?
3. My family line is from Ulster, so I'm also curious- is there an alternate/Ulster Gaelic spelling that would be different...?


Again, I'm pretty new but trying hard and very excited to get this right! I appreciate the help...Go raibh maith agaibh!

'Bhua' would be 'won' (past of win) and mottos are more Norman and British,

'bua' I think is more like 'value' (like the 'the value of that is that it is cheap')

'Suáilce' is more abstract, so I guess "Suáilce agus dílseacht', but I don't do these type of things as they are very sensitive to many variables, so wait for others

_________________
__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Yeah...more a Norman/British thing than an Irish thing. A lot of name sites will try to sell you on mottoes and coats of arms, though, valid or not. Most of them are full of shite. One place tried to sell my father-in-law on a coat of arms, and his ancestors have been Mennonite peasants forever!

One of the reason such mottoes typically weren't in Irish is that Irish people (other than the Normans) typically didn't have them.

But I agree...if you really want to get this, I'd say "Suáilce" is better than "Bua." If I saw "bua" I'd think "victory" or, as Jay Bee said above "value"

Wait for more.

Redwolf

Yeah haha I've seen those kinds of sites...they most definitely look unreliable/fake. I couldn't reach my grandpa today, but I do know that motto appears in several different records of crests/info for Irish families (Fairbairns and Sir Edmund Burke's-- both published before 1900). My own family line is hard to trace exactly (long story/poor records when they landed in Pennsylvania from Ireland) but I like the idea of using the family motto for a tattoo, rather than something generic...

So I checked out "Suáilce" and yeah I agree, that definitely seems to make more sense- thanks for the correction Jay Bee & Redwolf!

Suáilce agus Dílseacht ....grammatically weird or ok?

When you add -que at the end of a word in Latin, that means - and, so you don't have to put - et - as well, as that is saying the same thing twice.
Latin was considered to be more impressive on a coat of arms, though sometimes you see Norman French being used. I don't think you'd see much Irish being used in this context. A long time ago on the other forum, we had a long discussion about this. Coats of arms were usually bestowed on those families who had served the English crown in some way and not at all in the interests of Ireland. The official organisation responsible for heraldry is still there in London. There were up until fairly recently, Irish lords who would sit in the Westminster House of Lords, who obviously had theirs. Nearly all of them were from the Anglo-Irish ascendency and protestant. There is an office in the National Library in Dublin where there is a lady who deals with Irish heraldry, but it's very much a residual function, if you see what I mean. A lot of what you see on the net on this subject is bogus.

Just an afterthought - instead of putting - agus - in between those two words, you could put a sign that resembles a number seven - 7 - which is the usual shorthand for agus.

Just an afterthought - instead of putting - agus - in between those two words, you could put a sign that resembles a number seven - 7 - which is the usual shorthand for agus.[/quote]

Interesting! I'll consider that. So for now is it agreeable that "Suáilce agus Dilseacht" is an accurate translation at least...? I don't wanna pursue a tattoo that makes no grammatical sense/is inaccurate lol

The consensus is that it is right -the grammar is so simple ('and'), you can't go wrong

_________________
__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___