Common problems with learning Irish

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

Labhrás wrote:

Zurni wrote:

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

A few words change drastically in the vocative:

Micheál becomes a Mhichíl and my own name Cian becomes a Chéin.

Cian

So...that is only learning....no one can explain why in this cases?

a Mhíchíl instead of a Mhícheáil is really an exception.

Cian - a Chéin is a usual change of -ia- to -éi-. (though it does not occur in every case of -ia-: Brian - a Bhriain, not a Bhréin.
Compare with iasc - éisc (fish, of fish/fishes)

Nouns differ according to their declension group. There are (at least) 5 groups.
The only declension group with a change in vocative is the 1st declension.

In first declension vocative is the same as genitive: fear - a fhir, mac - a mhic, amadán - a amadáin, iasc - a éisc (in case you talk to a fish)
All nouns here are masculine.

In every other declension group (and most irregular nouns) vocative is the same as nominative: múinteoir - a mhúinteoir, bean - a bhean, iníon - a iníon, etc.
That's why all feminine nouns and all female personal names don't change in vocative. (None of them can be in first declension)

Unfortunately

most male personal names belong to first declension.
So, there are only a few male names without change in vocative, e.g.:
Liam, fourth declension (nominative = genitive = vocative, no change at all): Liam, teach Liam (Liam’s house), a Liam (Liam!)
Aonghus, third declension (genitive: Aonghusa, vocative Aonghus): Aonghus, teach Aonghusa, a Aonghus. (though sometimes it is used as a first declension noun: a Aonghuis)
Críostóir, third declension (genitive: Críostóra, vocative Críostóir): Críostóir, teach Chríostóra, a Chríostóir.

Mac is first declension, Ó is irregular with a vocative (and genitive) in Uí
So, most Irish surnames must change in vocative, too.

Great explanation :good:

Zurni · **Joined:** Thu 31 Jul 2014 12:49 pm **Posts:** 27

GRMMA

I always was bad with German grammar...how should I understand the Irish one. *lol*

The next question...:

Tá an fear ag rithe.
Tá an bhean ag rithe.
So...in this case the verb always stay in the form?

It is simple to understand why fear will be transformed to fir in plural.
But...whyyyyyyy? will bean turn to mná?

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

Zurni wrote:

GRMMA

I always was bad with German grammar...how should I understand the Irish one. *lol*

The next question...:

Tá an fear ag rithe.
Tá an bhean ag rithe.
So...in this case the verb always stay in the form?

It is simple to understand why fear will be transformed to fir in plural.
But...whyyyyyyy? will bean turn to mná?

Tá an fear ag rith
Tá an bhean ag rith

Mná: :darklaugh:

that's the way it is. Languages are illogical; I guess the Indo-European speakers wanted to have a word with a case system as complicated as the nature of the very being it was describing :twisted:

.

Interestingly, you find the form gná in Sanskrit.

Cian

Labhrás · **Joined:** Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm **Posts:** 1970

Zurni wrote:

GRMMA

I always was bad with German grammar...how should I understand the Irish one. *lol*

The next question...:

Tá an fear ag rithe.
Tá an bhean ag rithe.
So...in this case the verb always stay in the form?

It is simple to understand why fear will be transformed to fir in plural.
But...whyyyyyyy? will bean turn to mná?

ag rith = running

bean is irregular for a long time.
The Protoceltic form was benâ, gen. + plur. bnâs (probably < benâs)
(acc. to Macbain's etym. dictionary)
It is related with English queen, Greek gyné, Russian zhena, Indoeuropean root is gwen-

so:
benâ > bean
bnâs > bnâ > mná (> mrá in Northern dialects)

Zurni · **Joined:** Thu 31 Jul 2014 12:49 pm **Posts:** 27

Ah...ok.

Youse see..... I already forgot the correct spelling of "ag rith".

I had "ag ól" and I already forgot the word for eating.... *lol*
My head is just full of straw.

Jay Bee · **Joined:** Tue 15 Nov 2011 7:35 am **Posts:** 1098

'ag rith' is like 'at run' which is like more old-fashioned or archaic English 'the children are at play'.

We say it is a 'verbal noun', so it was originally a noun, and is now doing the job of verbally showing some action (and continuous progressive aspect as well)

You see this when in traditional Gaeltacht Irish, the noun that follows the verbal now is inflected into the genitive, as in 'ag ithe feola' not *'ag ithe feoil'

Also, when one is passively receiving something (like a punch!), it is 'tá se ag mo bhualadh' or 'do mo bhualadh', which would not occur if it were originally a verb, as a preposition would not come before the verb in that way. Someone once said Irish is a bit like archaic English in some of its idiom, and if that is true, then 'the children have taken to their play' is a bit like the same idea

galaxyrocker · **Posted:** Mon 07 Sep 2015 1:49 pm

Also, with regards to a' rith. I read in Gramadach na Gaeilge that it was more standard to use i mo rith, similar to the other stative structures (i mo dhúiseacht, srl). Does this still hold true?

Jay Bee · **Joined:** Tue 15 Nov 2011 7:35 am **Posts:** 1098

Would you consider 'i mo rith' to be an active or stative?

Labhrás · **Joined:** Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm **Posts:** 1970

Zurni wrote:

Ah...ok.

Youse see..... I already forgot the correct spelling of "ag rith".

I had "ag ól" and I already forgot the word for eating.... *lol*
My head is just full of straw.

Did you mean eating?

ag rith = running (or: i mo rith as already mentioned)
ag ithe = eating

galaxyrocker · **Posted:** Mon 07 Sep 2015 4:11 pm

Jay Bee wrote:

Would you consider 'i mo rith' to be an active or stative?

I'm not sure, honestly. I'd say it means more like I am "in the state of running" = "I am running".

Here's the relevant GnaG part:

http://www.nualeargais.ie/gnag/verbnom1.htm#VerlZustand

Forum rules

Common problems with learning Irish

Who is online