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 Post subject: Bilabial fricatives
PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep 2015 12:39 am 
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I was reading the Wikipedia page on Irish phonology and it said that some native Irish speakers / dialects (it said that it can vary from speaker to speaker within an area) use bilabial fricatives where we would usually be taught to use labiodental fricatives. Is this a case of English fs and vs replacing Irish βs and ɸs? Were these sounds common until relatively recently? I suppose if the native speakers are mostly using the f and v sounds, then those are correct but this is something that nearly went under my radar. Has anyone on here ever met, or been, a native Irish speaker who uses those sounds?


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 Post subject: Re: Bilabial fricatives
PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep 2015 1:14 am 
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Yes in all the dialects, as far as I now, it is relatively recent change under influence from English. I have met speakers who use the purely labial versions.

For anybody reading, traditionally in Irish you made f and v only with your lips, without your teeth.

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 Post subject: Re: Bilabial fricatives
PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep 2015 1:18 am 
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I was taught them in Coleraine University (my teacher learnt Irish in Rann na Feirste with old speakers ; that teacher was old himself, and attached much importance to native-like pronunciation, so he can't have invented all that). However, I mostly heard people using the labiodental sounds. But most of the time, speakers speak too quickly so you couldn't distinguish if these sounds are labiodental or bilabial...
I'd need to listen to John Ghráinne, for instance. I think that kind of speaker would use the oldest sounds :)

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 Post subject: Re: Bilabial fricatives
PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep 2015 9:09 am 
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Old speakers without teeth have no choice: They must make bilabial sounds ...


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 Post subject: Re: Bilabial fricatives
PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep 2015 9:48 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
Old speakers without teeth have no choice: They must make bilabial sounds ...
:rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Bilabial fricatives
PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep 2015 9:52 am 
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Quote:
Old speakers without teeth have no choice: They must make bilabial sounds ...


Haha. The dialect books of the 20th century make a few remarks about those who use labio-dental sounds, including in Cois Fhairrige, one lad whose teeth were somewhat prominent, so slender bi-labials since they would have drawn more attention to his mouth, were generally substituted.

However, those with teeth still articulated bi-labially, and besides, systematically, they would be needed, as with only an English f or v, broad/slender starts to break down.

Personally, to my ear, any English sounds sound weird in Irish. Someone from England would not have native-Irish sounds to their English, so why put them in Irish?

I also once read something about f being bi-labial in Spanish once, until merchants in the 14th century from France, who settled there, as a wealth middle class, brought a labio-dental articulation and it became the norm, but I don't know about that

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 Post subject: Re: Bilabial fricatives
PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep 2015 9:58 am 
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https://books.google.ie/books?id=Zjcrhy ... 0f&f=false

The above states it might have been contact with Rome (Latin) that caused the shift, which is more likely

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 Post subject: Re: Bilabial fricatives
PostPosted: Sun 06 Sep 2015 9:59 am 
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Oh, I see. Further down the page, they repeat the Frenchmen story...

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 Post subject: Re: Bilabial fricatives
PostPosted: Wed 09 Sep 2015 11:40 pm 
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:GRMA:

When the letter 'f' is used in Irish, does that refer to the labiodental fricative or the bilabial fricative? I mean, would the initial consonants in 'féile' and 'phictiúrlann' be pronounced differently?


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 Post subject: Re: Bilabial fricatives
PostPosted: Thu 10 Sep 2015 12:47 am 
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No, it's the same sound, the same phoneme /f'/ no matter how you spell it. Just as initial mh and bh are pronounced the same way, etc.

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