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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec 2014 6:16 pm 
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In the nominative/accusative singular, feminine nouns lenite a following attributive adjective (explanation of "attributive" follows), masculine nouns don't.

Two types of adjective position:
Predicative: The car is green.
Attributive: a green car

Predicative adjectives stand alone as the second bit of a "to be"/"tá" clause. Attributive adjectives are stuck to their nouns.

Anyhow, using the adjectives to denote gender is simple...
teach mór -> a big house ; teach beag -> a little house
bean mhór -> a big woman ; bean bheag -> a little woman

The simple absence of H indicates masculine naturally, and the presence indicates feminine. You can start with just mór and beag and slowly add in additional adjectives as you expand your vocabulary, and as long as you're careful to avoid any combinations that would block lenition or where there would be no lenition, then you're building up an accurate model split into two categories (even if you can't initially remember which one has which name, you're still ensuring that your brain splits the learned vocab into two "buckets").

[In most languages, I wouldn't bother discussing "predicative" vs "attributive" adjectives, as it's a wee bit technical and dry. However, while in English you can say "adjectives next to nouns", in Irish, both types can appear in a position next to the noun, because there's no verb in between, so a deeper explanation is needed]

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec 2014 7:31 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
In the nominative/accusative singular, feminine nouns lenite a following attributive adjective (explanation of "attributive" follows), masculine nouns don't.

Two types of adjective position:
Predicative: The car is green.
Attributive: a green car

Predicative adjectives stand alone as the second bit of a "to be"/"tá" clause. Attributive adjectives are stuck to their nouns.

Anyhow, using the adjectives to denote gender is simple...
teach mór -> a big house ; teach beag -> a little house
bean mhór -> a big woman ; bean bheag -> a little woman

The simple absence of H indicates masculine naturally, and the presence indicates feminine. You can start with just mór and beag and slowly add in additional adjectives as you expand your vocabulary, and as long as you're careful to avoid any combinations that would block lenition or where there would be no lenition, then you're building up an accurate model split into two categories (even if you can't initially remember which one has which name, you're still ensuring that your brain splits the learned vocab into two "buckets").

[In most languages, I wouldn't bother discussing "predicative" vs "attributive" adjectives, as it's a wee bit technical and dry. However, while in English you can say "adjectives next to nouns", in Irish, both types can appear in a position next to the noun, because there's no verb in between, so a deeper explanation is needed]


Also worth remembering that DeNTaLS doesn't technically apply to attributive adjectives (though you'll often hear them not lenited by both learners and natives). So, technically, you'd have an bhean dheas, even though DeNTaLS generally would block it.


Last edited by galaxyrocker on Fri 02 Jan 2015 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec 2014 7:32 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
idshanks wrote:
Ahh! I didn't realise quite how the noun itself reflected its gender in the presence of the definite article! Shows how elementary my knowledge is so far! :P I've tried colour-coding in the past, but unfortunately I really don't respond well to colouring (I'm not a very visual person at all; I tend to learn via context and application above all else).

I need to learn a little more to work out how adjectives reflect the gender. (If it isn't obvious, I only finally made the first step to begin focused learning of the language this morning, so I'm coming from a pretty basic place right now! :P) It certainly sounds like it might do the trick for the few consonants which don't change. And from what I've read today, NiallBeag, it applies in Irish - the letters D, L, N, S, T prevent lenition of the following D, S, T (there was an acronym for the rule, but I've lost the link >_<). Is the rule similar/identical in Gàidhlig? (Hope I'm not talking keich here, haha!)


DeNTaLS, perhaps...?


Yes, Gaelic has the "DeNTaLS" rule. Set out below is an explanation which I found online a while back, which takes an interesting approach to explaining the issue. I don't know where I found this, and (given my usual practice), it may contain info from several sources which I merged together (including info from posts on this forum and the old one). Given the chatty tone of it, I suspect that it (or most of it) came from the old Akerbeltz site, which is now not functioning, although some of the material from it is available elsewhere. I'm going to post this in the Gaelic forum as well, and to avoid bugging those not interested in Gaelic, perhaps further comment on it as it relates to Gaelic ought to take place there, although it is obviously also largely relevant to lenition in Irish.

Quote:
Every Gaelic textbook will teach you about lenition and when to expect it; there is lenition after feminine nouns, after the definite article in certain cases and so on which are “relatively” straightforward. But as we all know there are certain exception to this rule ... you have sgian mhór but sgian dubh, an fhàinne but an duilleag, Dùn Bhreatainn but Dùn Dèagh, MacDhòmhnaill but MacCaluim, and, as the song goes: “mo nigheann donn”, at which point you will often find a list telling you that an does not lenite feminine nouns beginning with d or l and/or that it just is Dùn Dèagh and not “Dùn Dhèagh”.

Fortunately, there is an easier rule. Linguists call it the homo-organic rule, the rule of “sounds made with the same organ”. You could call it the “sgian dubh rule” to make it easier to remember, since it demonstrates the rule in action. But before we can understand this rule, we need to look at our mouth again and where we make sounds. Broadly speaking, in Gaelic there are three important areas in your mouth where you make consonant sounds: at your lips (labial sounds), at your teeth (dental sounds) and at your velum (velar sounds, made at the place at the back of your throat where you make a <k> sound):

Group 1 (labials) b, p, m, f
Group 2 (dentals) d, n, t, l, s
Group 3 (velars) c, g

The rule in Gaelic is that, whenever you have two sounds which are in the same group coming together, lenition is blocked, even if the grammatical rule is saying “lenite here please!”. Let’s look at some examples:

Dùn Bhreatainn -- n is in Group 2, b in Group 1, so lenition takes place
Dùn Dèagh – both n and d are in Group 2, so no lenition

Camshronach – m is in Group 1, s in Group 2, so lenition takes place
Caimbeul – both m and b are in Group 1, so no lenition

Mac Dhòmhnaill – c is in Group 3, d in Group 2, so lenition takes place
Mac Griogair, Mac Caluim – both c and g are in Group 3, so no lenition

sgian mhór – n is in Group 2, m in Group 1, so lenition takes place
sgian-dubh – both n and d are in Group 2, so no lenition

air an fhearann, An Fhraing – n is in Group 2, f in Group 1, so lenition takes place
air an duilleig, an deoch – both n and d are in Group 2, so no lenition

Of course, things are not quite that uncomplicated. In modern Gaelic, this rule has started to break down and is thus not always applied. The rule is most strictly adhered to with place names and surnames, and after the definite article. This rule is most intact with dental sounds (Group 2) and only infrequently applied with sounds from Group 1 and 3. So, as a pointer to good “current” Gaelic, it is suggested that you adhere to these rules with surnames, place names, the definite article an, the negation cha(n), and certain verbal forms like bhios, bhiodh and bu, but not otherwise.

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec 2014 7:42 pm 
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Yup. When he was professionalising his main site, he set up his grammar notes on a wiki at akerbeltz.org.uk . "The homo-organic rule" or "When not to lenite".

Remember, though, that he's talking about Scottish Gaelic, and specifically conservative pronunciation. The homo-organic rule does seem to have broken down somewhat into more of semi-grammaticalised thing...

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PostPosted: Tue 30 Dec 2014 7:49 pm 
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Thanks for that info, Niall. I had found wiki's of some of his other material, but not that bit. I'll annotate the Gaelic post accordingly.

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PostPosted: Wed 31 Dec 2014 12:28 pm 
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Woops, I'd accidentally unsubscribed myself from this thread! Thanks for all the excellent, detailed posts. :) Indeed it was DeNTaLS that I came across online!

NiallBeag wrote:
The simple absence of H indicates masculine naturally, and the presence indicates feminine. You can start with just mór and beag and slowly add in additional adjectives as you expand your vocabulary, and as long as you're careful to avoid any combinations that would block lenition or where there would be no lenition, then you're building up an accurate model split into two categories (even if you can't initially remember which one has which name, you're still ensuring that your brain splits the learned vocab into two "buckets").


This is excellent. Thanks for the explanation; it's exactly what I needed to really kick off my vocabulary properly.


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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jan 2015 5:58 pm 
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galaxyrocker wrote:
Also worth remembering that DeNTaLS doesn't technically apply to predicative adjectives (though you'll often hear them not lenited by both learners and natives). So, technically, you'd have an bhean dheas, even though DeNTaLS generally would block it.

I think you mean attributive adjectives here -- predicative adjectives don't lenite.

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PostPosted: Fri 02 Jan 2015 6:14 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:
Also worth remembering that DeNTaLS doesn't technically apply to predicative adjectives (though you'll often hear them not lenited by both learners and natives). So, technically, you'd have an bhean dheas, even though DeNTaLS generally would block it.

I think you mean attributive adjectives here -- predicative adjectives don't lenite.



Yep. Stupid mistake on my part.


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