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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug 2014 2:57 pm 
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Jay Bee wrote:
It's not a question, more that it's an ejaculative!


Depending on context it can be used as a question too?


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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug 2014 4:17 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
WeeFalorieMan wrote:
Jay Bee wrote:
B: Ha? Níl sé fliuch?
A thiarcais! Even "Ha" is considered to be a question?! 8O


Actually "ha?" is common as a question in Connemara.
In particular in the context: Ha? - What [did you say]?

It'a multi-purpose word. It can also mean "yes/yeah", especially in Ceantar na nOileáin. Or just to add as a confirmation that you are listening (You will often hear Máirtín Tom Sheáinín say it). I remember the first time I met daoine aniar when I started secondary school. And one lad used to say "ha" when I would've said "sea", and I was thinking what do you mean. :LOL:


My granny spent years trying to get me to stop using "Ha?" as a question for ,"what did you say?". She thought it was rude, that I should use Pardon instead.

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PostPosted: Wed 20 Aug 2014 4:38 pm 
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Quote:
Depending on context it can be used as a question too?


I would broadly differentiate between phatic speech (chatting and expressive utterences) and operative speech (work and information), and in that frame of mind, would say it's not a question unless it elicits a response that is either informational or actional (or both).

However, some utterances straddle both, such as miratives ("He certainly dances well!") and ejaculatives which are personal in that they involve an emotional response, phatic in that they wouldn't normally be uttered isolated from another person and slightly illocutionary (pertaining to commands etc) in that their uttering draws an operative response from the other person.

It's a case where thinking of the the 'ha' is a word and also trying to isolate its function into one category doesn't work, I suppose

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PostPosted: Thu 21 Aug 2014 12:33 am 
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NiallBeag wrote:

The authors of BC didn't have access to a modern statistical corpus, so would have been relying on the same flawed human intuition as the rest of us, so would have been prone to either direct interference from English, or to selectively choosing a (possibly minority) feature from an English-influenced dialect.

Either way, take nobody's word for it.


Buntús Cainte: Introduction wrote:
Тhe content оf the course has beеn carefully selected on the basis of normal daily сconversational requirements as establishеd by the scientific research which formеd the basis for the recently published Buntús Gaeilge.


An Roinn Oideachais: Buntús Gaeilge. Réamhthuarascáil ar thaighde teangeolaíochta a rinneadh sa Teanglann, Rinn Mhic Gormáin.
B.Á.C.,1966. 206 pp. A frequency analysis of Irish words and phrase structures, carried out under the direction of Colmán Ó hUallacháin.


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PostPosted: Thu 21 Aug 2014 9:42 am 
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RobertKaucher wrote:
NiallBeag wrote:

The authors of BC didn't have access to a modern statistical corpus, so would have been relying on the same flawed human intuition as the rest of us, so would have been prone to either direct interference from English, or to selectively choosing a (possibly minority) feature from an English-influenced dialect.

Either way, take nobody's word for it.


Buntús Cainte: Introduction wrote:
Тhe content оf the course has beеn carefully selected on the basis of normal daily сconversational requirements as establishеd by the scientific research which formеd the basis for the recently published Buntús Gaeilge.


An Roinn Oideachais: Buntús Gaeilge. Réamhthuarascáil ar thaighde teangeolaíochta a rinneadh sa Teanglann, Rinn Mhic Gormáin.
B.Á.C.,1966. 206 pp. A frequency analysis of Irish words and phrase structures, carried out under the direction of Colmán Ó hUallacháin.
Turning lead into gold was once considered "science"...

Frequency analyses cannot produce statistically trustworthy results without having a heck of a lot of language data. Even now, corpuses can be spoiled by selective choosing of source material, and they contain billions of words. No matter anyone's best intentions, in 1966 it would have been impossible to build a large-scale, statistically relevant corpus, so they would have had to be very selective in what they thought was worth including, and that selective step destroys the objectivity of the study.

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PostPosted: Thu 21 Aug 2014 12:26 pm 
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Quote:
Turning lead into gold was once considered "science"...

<Pedantic arsehole>You actually can turn lead into gold with ion bombardment.</Pedantic arsehole>

Quote:
Frequency analyses cannot produce statistically trustworthy results without having a heck of a lot of language data. Even now, corpuses can be spoiled by selective choosing of source material, and they contain billions of words. No matter anyone's best intentions, in 1966 it would have been impossible to build a large-scale, statistically relevant corpus, so they would have had to be very selective in what they thought was worth including, and that selective step destroys the objectivity of the study.

Why would it have been impossible in 1966 to build such a corpus? This is out of genuine scientific curiosity.

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PostPosted: Thu 21 Aug 2014 12:53 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
Turning lead into gold was once considered "science"...

Frequency analyses cannot produce statistically trustworthy results without having a heck of a lot of language data. Even now, corpuses can be spoiled by selective choosing of source material, and they contain billions of words. No matter anyone's best intentions, in 1966 it would have been impossible to build a large-scale, statistically relevant corpus, so they would have had to be very selective in what they thought was worth including, and that selective step destroys the objectivity of the study.

Look, I'm off this topic as of this post. I mean seriously. The General Service List of English was done in the 1950s and even with the issues that it has it's to this day considered "excellent" despite its age, see Corpus Linguistics: An Introduction. But since it's been updated there is more modern adata but that doesn't completely invalidate it. The French carried one out in the 1950s as well which [url="http://expsy.ugent.be/subtlexus/Brysbaert%26NewBehaviorResearchMethods.pdf"]is still also highly regarded[/url].

While modern methods for collecting data has made it easier to get massive samples no one in the field in the literature I have read has ever compared the work of frequency analysts from the past few decades to medieval superstitions.
The Routledge Handbook of Corpus Linguistics wrote:
Language teachers have long used lists of important vocabulary as a guide to course design and materials preparation, and corpus data have always played a major part in developing these lists. As early as the 1890s, Kaeding supervised a manual frequency count of an eleven-million-word corpus to identify important words for the training of stenographers, and similar counts were used by language teachers from at least the early twentieth century onwards (Howatt and Widdowson 2004: 288—92). The argument for prioritising vocabulary learning on the basis of frequency information is based on the principle that the more frequent a word is, the more important it is to learn. Proponents of a frequency-based approach point to the fact that a relatively small number of very common items accounts for the large majority of language we typically encounter. Nation (2001: 111), for example, reports that the 2,000-word families of West's (1953) General Service List account for around 80 per cent of naturally occurring text in general English. This suggests that a focus on high-frequency items will pay substantial dividends
for novice learners since knowing these words will enable them understand much of what they encounter (Nation and Waring 1997: 9).

The development of computerised corpus analysis has made the job of compiling word-frequency statistics far easier than it once was, and has given impetus to a new wave of pedagogically oriented research (e.g. Nation and Waring 1997; Biber et al. 1999; Coxhead 2000). Importantly, the widespread availability of corpora and the ease of carrying out automated word counts seems also to offer individual teachers the possibility of creating vocabulary lists tailored to their learners' own needs. However, it is important to bear in mind that corpus software is not yet able to construct pedagogically useful word lists without substantial human guidance.


See that last sentence.

I am not saying that either of these works, BG or BC, do not have issues or could not be improved upon today but come on... Abject dismissal as "amateur", "opinion", and comparing scholarship from the 60s to alchemy simply on the basis it's from the 60s? Attack the data. Attack the sample size as a fact, not how large you think it was, but the actual number. Attack the collection methods described in BG. The actual collection methods. Attack the analytical methods used and why you think the margin of error accepted by the author of BG is too high.


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PostPosted: Thu 21 Aug 2014 3:05 pm 
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I wouldn't dismiss human choice in the guiding of what to include and exclude from materials because while corpus linguistics might yearn for large corpora, data mining systems are not yet cognitive in and of themselves so have no 'grounded' real world criteria to work off. Word frequencies are fine, but compare the following for what most people would consider a single token, the verb 'see':

sensory cognitive: I see a cat
comprehension cognitive: I see his point [understand]
ability: he sees well [eyesight]
social cognitive: he saw it to it's conclusion [also metaphoric]

Without some sort of 'curating', you won't get a good idea from word counts and frequencies the sort of semantically important elements real speakers need and use everyday, even if it might just be once in 24 hours

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PostPosted: Thu 21 Aug 2014 3:08 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
<Pedantic arsehole>You actually can turn lead into gold with ion bombardment.</Pedantic arsehole>
I've seen mercury turned into gold.


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PostPosted: Thu 21 Aug 2014 3:10 pm 
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Having the big corpora via bigger and bigger databases is done in the hope of capturing more and more examples and so increase the chances of uncovering patterns.

Language is however dynamic and the product of a cognitive system which itself has a lot of its knowledge embedded in neural networks, so you'd really need a full simulation of a world in itself to provide a 'complete' picture, and even then it would be limited as there would be consciousness and long term memory and consequence etc for the simulated speakers

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