Im a bit confused about the preposition Ó in Munster Irish. As far as I can tell people sometimes use Uaim and then Bhuam ??

Is there a difference, is Bhuam a different pronunciation, used in a different context and a different spelling ?

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

There is no difference in the pronunciation if you are a Munster native Irish speaker or native Irish learner because you will know no different. In either case the same pronunciation would be rendered for both i.e. (woo'im or woo'am). The addition of initial "bh" is traditional in Munster Irish and better represents the sound actually made by the speaker.

Spelling of prepositional pronoun "ó" in Munster Irish.

Bhuaim/ bhuam
bhuait (woo'it)
bhuaidh (woo'ig)
bhuaithe (woo'i-heh) (i as in the i in the word in)
bhuainn (woo'ing)
bhuaibh (woo'iv)
bhuatha (woo'a hah)

In other dialects of Irish there is no initial "w" sound.

Standard:

uaim
uait
uaidh
uaithi
uainn
uaibh
uathu

The addition of "bh" is also common in Scottish Gaelic, even on the preposition itself; Irish: ó, Scottish Gaelic: bho.

Cian.

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

In Kerry and Waterford they say Bhuaim, but in Cork they say Uaim.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

Ah all the audio I have is teach yourself Irish , which is cork Irish. So maybe thats why I couldnt find examples of Bhuam, bhuait etc.

An Cionnfhaolach im not sure what you mean by if I am a native Irish learner ill know no difference. if im learning surely there is the possibility I could learn the "wrong" version or simply make an error in my pronunciation ?

Its not as if there is a wealth of audio for a learner of Munster Irish.

is the Bh used in spelling in Munster or is it simply for illustrating the phonetics ?

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

also is the plural of lámh , lámha pronounced as if the final a is dropped?

on page 50 of teach yourself Irish there is a phrase
Tá do lámha salach agus tá mo lámha-sa salach leis.

but in the audio the lámha sounds more akin to lámh.

its something that's been bugging me for ages

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

Yeah, lámha is commonly reduced in speech. It's pronounced Lá usually.

Note the genitive singular Láimhe, is also really Lá in speech.

Note that traditionally (18/19th century) it was Lá, but the á was a nasal sound, so it could be told apart from Lá = day. Today it couldn't be, ignoring context of course.


Yeah, that's exactly why.


Only in a few books, it's quite rare to see. If you see it spelled bhuaim or chun spelled chuin then the book is one that sticks very close to the pronunciation. Most books that stick close to pronunciation (i.e. writing a dh'ól instead of a ól) will not have bhuaim.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

brilliant thanks for the help lads.
wish i had a native speaker to hand i could record from at whim.


Out of curiosity is the nasalization you mentioned completely gone now?

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

Yeah, basically. I don't think a single living speaker still uses it, but I'll make sure later today (don't have my notes with me now).

If you have Labharfad le cách you can hear Peig Sayers use it. Even in the generation born in the 1870s it was practically gone.

Basically -úmha-, -ómha- or -ámha- stood for nasal versions of ó,ú,á.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

was there any reason for its decline, strange it declined in all dialects.

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

Actually, all dialects have initial "w" sound in this set.

Connachta:

uaim /wem´/
uait /wet´/
uaidh /wai/
uaithi /wohə/ (GC) or /wo:/ (GCF)
uainn /weN´/
uaibh /web´/
uathu /wohəb/ (GC) or/wo:b´/ (GCF)

Cois Fhairrge uses uaidh /wai/ instead of ó, e.g., uaidh Sheán.

An Teanga Bheo gives the Uladh set as:

wuam, wiam
wuaid, wiaid
wua, wia
wuaithe, wiaithe
wuainn, wiainn
wuaibh, wiaibh
wuafa, wiafa

Perhaps Lughaidh can give the appropriate phonetics for those?

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).