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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jan 2014 7:16 am 
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http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~sys502/arcvi ... aper_1.pdf

ABO and rhesus d maps of Ireland

Quote:
Interpretation
As Dawson has suggested, the divisions of Ireland based on the frequencies of the ABO and Rh(D) types show a moderately good fit with those based on the population history of the country. Beddoe (1885) noted the dark hair and other special physical features of the inhabitants of the mountainous west; Hooton and Dupertuis (1955) and Evans (1973) identified them as the probable descendants of the first Mesolithic inhabitants, subsequently driven into the mountains by later comers. The peoples of the west with their high O and low Rh-negative (cde) frequencies thus appear likely to be descended mainly from these first inhabitants. Ulster might then have been colonized by populations low in the B gene frequency from south-west Scotland and northern England and these have been the people who built the extensive prehistoric earthwork known as Black Pig's Dyke linking the Drumlins, lakes and bogs to form a barrier with the south. They might also have been those who brought the Court-Cairn culture to Ulster to which this type of megalithic structure is almost completely restricted. Supporting evidence for such settlement of Ulster comes from the ABO gene frequencies in south-west Scotland which closely resemble those of Ulster (O gene 0.70, A gene 0.25 and B gene 0.05). This difference of the north of the island would have been maintained and accentuated by the plantation of James I.

Dawson suggests that there was a further influx of people from the south-east who had high frequencies of the B gene. We consider it more likely that these people entered both from the south-east and the east displacing the original high O frequency peoples into the west. In turn these high B frequency people were pushed westwards by the high frequency A and Rh(D) negative peoples from England, Wales and Scotland.

If these suggestions are correct, i.e. that the high O frequency people are Mesolithic remnants, that Ulster was settled by people of the Court-Cairn culture from Scotland, and that the high A frequencies in the eastern counties are due to migration from the rest of the British Isles, with perhaps a contribution from the Danish vikings, then it remains to determine who were the people who were high in frequency of the B gene. The distribution of high B frequency fits the pattern of settlement of the Beaker People and the Celts, for the distribution is restricted to that found for Wedge or Gallery graves and early metal working; the finding of a few Wedge graves in the other areas of Ireland would be explained by cultural diffusion

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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jan 2014 1:23 pm 
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It would make sense that dialects would be defined by geographical boundary's, much like political units and communities.

I wonder though how accurate is the genetic map going on surnames alone. As in how many Fitzgerald for example would actually be genetic descants of the original Fitzgeralds and how many would have had ancestors who adopted the surname of the sept which ruled over them ?

for example this map of Clans, shows a large number of Non Gaelic clans in north Kerry and Mid Connaght, but as i understand it the genetics of these areas are overwhelmingly of Gaelic (or pre Gaelic stock)

http://www.irishorigenes.com/store/iris ... tories-map

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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jan 2014 2:58 pm 
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According to the site, there is only a 50% correspondence between name and ancestry. We don't, of course, know under what terms of reference he is doing the correlation and with lots of data that's what people do -look for patterns rather than find out direct causes

Maybe he is letting the names be the main drivers of the results. It's not clear

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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jan 2014 3:12 pm 
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The blood type map is interesting, if it does indeed reflect discreet population entry into Ireland.

We know that O+ is associated with the Western side of Ireland and I've read that carriers of the blood type are better able to withstand certain diseases and famines (perhaps why the genetic profile of Iceland has shifted to resemble Ireland more than Norway in blood type, from A to O), but we don't know of other factors have influenced the spread of one type over another besides immigration for in complex systems tracking cause is hard enough but doing it retrospectively from the non-complete data is much more difficult


PS, I know I've posted a lot of links. I want to make files of the links in this thread and have them posted here

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PostPosted: Mon 20 Jan 2014 11:32 am 
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As far as I was aware the vast majority of Irish ancestry is the same as the original inhabitants ?

for example this map of the Haplogroup subgroup R-L21 shows it to be dominant in the "Celtic regions". I think I read over 85% of Irish inhabitants have it?

but then I don't know how much of a oversimplification this is or how accurately it illustrates population movements.
for example does it show the impact of people moving from Ireland to Britain after the Famine.
English Settlers from Western parts of Britain no doubt had this Haplogroup.



lots of interesting theory's here http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogrou ... -DNA.shtml
and Maps. Love Maps evenif they oversimplify things

"Some L21 lineages from the Netherlands and northern Germany later entered Scandinavia (from 1700 BCE) with the dominant subclade of the region, R1b-S21/U106 (see below). The stronger presence of L21 in Norway and Iceland can be attributed to the Norwegian Vikings, who had colonised parts of Scotland and Ireland and taken slaves among the native Celtic populations, whom they brought to their new colony of Iceland and back to Norway. Nowadays about 20% of all Icelandic male lineages are R1b-L21 of Scottish or Irish origin."

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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan 2014 1:40 pm 
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Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
As far as I was aware the vast majority of Irish ancestry is the same as the original inhabitants ?
That seems to be the case.

I've wondered that myself -all the Irish, millions of them, spewing out sprogs, must have altered the genetic topography so I'm skeptical of maps that are too discreet in showing differences


Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
for example this map of the Haplogroup subgroup R-L21 shows it to be dominant in the "Celtic regions". I think I read over 85% of Irish inhabitants have it?
This could just mean the people at the fringe haven't mixed a lot over time and nowadays just happen to be the last speakers of the Celtic languages

Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
lots of interesting theory's here http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogrou ... -DNA.shtml
and Maps. Love Maps evenif they oversimplify things
Interesting site! When I get the chance, I'm going to go thru it all and the side links. Interesting how R1b goes so far down into Nigeria and Cameroon, to an area occupied by the Fula people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_people They are an ethnic group spread over many countries, mainly in West Africa and northern parts of Central Africa, but also in the Sudan area. Overall, the territory and range of where Fulani people can be found is significantly larger than the United States and Western Europe in area. So they must have picked it up somewhere on their travels. It just shows how intermixed we all are

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PostPosted: Sat 25 Jan 2014 7:05 am 
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Having read thru the site I'm left with the idea of how complex it is, and how 'Big Data' (use of massive amounts of data and supercomputers) might help in showing up correlations, and that we might never know, plus access to all the potential data is not feasible (sample everyone, dig up all ground over a chunk of the planet)

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PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 5:01 pm 
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with most these things they seem to answer some questions but ask more :)

What i like though is how it excludes certainty and shows evidence for various possibility's.

When people say something like "the English are descended from Saxons" the data available shows that its not really true and not that simple.

it might help dispell more ludicrous claims of ethnic origins which are often created to form a sense of superiority over others ,
such as "X race being descended from Y heroic race (Romans, Huns, Atlantians etc ) are Superior to race Z due to defeating them in some past time and taking their lands or being here first etc." The real picture is often more complex and very different from such claims.

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PostPosted: Mon 27 Jan 2014 11:05 pm 
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Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
it might help dispell more ludicrous claims of ethnic origins which are often created to form a sense of superiority over others ,
Except, of course, the FACT that all Kildare people are direct descendants of Roman gods. They is some evidence to suggest Greek god contamination. Either way, the superiority issue is undeniable. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue 28 Jan 2014 11:36 am 
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I thought Kildare people were descended from the English

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