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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 12:59 pm 
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Jay Bee wrote:
Roinn means department, portion and division, variously so you can see the parallels.

What we need in Irish is a 'lexico-conceptual' dictionary or reference that connects things like you say, conceptually

I'm not sure I understand what "lexico-conceptual" means, but if I'm following you, I think www.potafocal.com is a good dictionary because it gives you examples of a word in a lot of different contexts.

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 1:00 pm 
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Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
Jay Bee wrote:
Look at this:

Quote:
caithfidh tú arán a ghearradh.

caithfidh tú ag gearradh aráin.


You must cut bread versus you must be cutting bread.

If you don't want to write 'ag gearradh' then 'a'gearradh' will show the difference with it and 'a ghearradh'


Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
Roinnt is pronounced 'Reent' is it not? and Roinn would be 'reen'?


I would pronounce in a way consistent with the spelling as one is a learner, but everyone has different preferences
http://breis.focloir.ie/en/fuaim/roinnt

Generally, North Mayo and Donegal are more conservative on sounds, so 'rinnt' follows the spelling more


I do actually know about 'ag rith' and 'a rith' etc. Ie. running and to run and ag rith goes in the middle of a sentence and a rith goes at the end but that was why I was banging my head because I should not have made that mistake! That and Liomsa/Leatsa of course :bash: :LOL:


Don't worry! It's only a small thing and you're aware of it now anyways

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 1:00 pm 
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Her is me talking to my young daughter Iona - OK here goes... Tá brón orm a h'Iona, Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil is leatsa é ach caithfidh tú do bréaganna a roinnt. Feach ar na leanaí eile. Tá siad ag roinnt a mbréaganna freisin. Bí calín maith anois. Sin é. Go raibh maith agat.

That is just an example of the sort of things I wpould be saying at present. Please pick holes at will! :LOL:

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 1:11 pm 
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I just made up the term, but in such a hypothetical work, words like roth, rothar, rothlú would all be linked for simple rotation while then linking to uainíocht which would deal with cyclical alteration (like crop change and guard duty) while then linking to casadh which would deal with a more 'viscous' sort of twisting or turning under force.

In other words, 'roth' is more geometric, 'uain' is more temporal and 'cas' more physical.

I don't think such a book would do learners harm and might shield against overt Anglicization

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Last edited by Jay Bee on Fri 06 Dec 2013 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 1:14 pm 
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Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
Her is me talking to my young daughter Iona - OK here goes... Tá brón orm a h'Iona, Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil is leatsa é ach caithfidh tú do bréaganna a roinnt. Feach ar na leanaí eile. Tá siad ag roinnt a mbréaganna freisin. Bí calín maith anois. Sin é. Go raibh maith agat.

That is just an example of the sort of things I wpould be saying at present. Please pick holes at will! :LOL:


Not sure I have it exactly right either, but here's my attempt.

Tá brón orm a Iona, tá a fhios agam gur leatsa é ach caithfidh tú do chuid bréagáin a roinnt. Féach ar na leanaí eile. Tá siadsan ag roinnt a mbréagáin freisin. Bí i do chailín maith anois. Sin é. Go raibh maith agat.

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 1:28 pm 
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Mick wrote:
Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
Her is me talking to my young daughter Iona - OK here goes... Tá brón orm a h'Iona, Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil is leatsa é ach caithfidh tú do bréaganna a roinnt. Feach ar na leanaí eile. Tá siad ag roinnt a mbréaganna freisin. Bí calín maith anois. Sin é. Go raibh maith agat.

That is just an example of the sort of things I wpould be saying at present. Please pick holes at will! :LOL:


Not sure I have it exactly right either, but here's my attempt.

Tá brón orm a Iona, tá a fhios agam gur leatsa é ach caithfidh tú do chuid bréagáin a roinnt. Féach ar na leanaí eile. Tá siadsan ag roinnt a mbréagáin freisin. Bí i do chailín maith anois. Sin é. Go raibh maith agat.


Ok... questions :D

Why Siadsan?

Bréagáin is obviosly the plural of Bréagán :bash:

Why 'Bí i do chailín maith anois'? Is this like Tá sí ina suí? She is sitting down, in otherwords she is immersed in HER action so 'i do chailín maith' is like 'be in your good girl mode'

Why gur instead of go bhfuil?

By the way guys, I am finding all of this exteamely helpful. It really is great to have people who know what they are talking about set me straight! :)

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 1:46 pm 
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Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
Ok... questions :D

Why Siadsan?

Tá siad ag roinnt = They are sharing
Tá siadsan ag roinnt = THEY are sharing

Your version is correct too, I just put more emphasis on the word "they."

Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
Why 'Bí i do chailín maith anois'? Is this like Tá sí ina suí? She is sitting down, in otherwords she is immersed in HER action so 'i do chailín maith' is like 'be in your good girl mode'

I think your "good girl mode" is a great way to explain it.

Is cailín maith í = She is a good girl
Tá sí ina cailín maith = She is being a good girl/ She has become a good girl / She is now in good girl mode
Tá sí cailín maith / Bí cailín maith = Wrong verb

This is commonly referred to as a TSF error (Tá sé fear).

Is fear é = He is a man
Tá sé ina fhear = He has become a man, he is speaking as man, he is in man-mode
Tá sé fear = Wrong verb, the so-called TSF error

Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
Why gur instead of go bhfuil?

Go bhfuil has no place here. You have used two different verbs: "go bhfuil" and "is" where only the verb "is" is relevant.

Tá a fhios agam. Is leatsa é. = I know. It's yours (two separate statements)
Tá a fhios agam gur leatsa é = I know that it is yours (one statement)

Is é = it is
Gur = that it is (I know that it is . . . / I heard that is it is . . . / I think that it is . . . etc.

"Gur" is another form of "is", used for these kind of sentences. I think these called relative clauses, or dependent clauses or something like that (I'm not good on grammar terminology).

(Edited to add in clearer examples)

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 1:56 pm 
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Quote:
Tá brón orm a Iona, tá a fhios agam gur leatsa é ach caithfidh tú do chuid bréagáin a roinnt. Féach ar na leanaí eile. Tá siadsan ag roinnt a mbréagáin freisin. Bí i do chailín maith anois. Sin é. Go raibh maith agat.


Would the Munster heads run the gen plural thru the possive adj, as in 'ag roinnt a mbréagán'. I recall seeing something like this in one of the 'Teanga Bheo' series, Corca Dhuibhne, I think, in something like 'ag tiomáint mo chairr'.

I'd prefer to do it myself as I like the pattern

Here is me READING the above, so obviously it would be different in speech, but anyway. My pronunciation is rather neutral. Also, my slender r is very sizzly at times or can be 'd-like' (the latter, not in this recording), so I add that as a proviso

I've assumed the Caighdeán stance on masc dec 1 gen pl and assumed we are talking about toys plural ('cuid bréagán') and have opted for the more old fashioned 'a stór'. I've left the common plural after 'a mbréagáin'. If it were a boy, I would say 'a mhic'. I doubt doubt Bríd would know more about addressing girls. I also don't know if you prefix a h before a female vowel-initial name used vocatiavly, and I don't know how Iona is pronounced either!

Tá brón orm a Iona, tá a fhios agam gur leatsa é ach caithfidh tú do chuid bréagán a roinnt. Féach ar na leanaí eile. Tá siadsan ag roinnt a mbréagáin. Bí i do chailín maith anois, a stór

http://www.(inappropriate link - please contact Admin).com/breagain

It's hard not to get a bit flustered making recordings tho

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 2:04 pm 
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I try to think of it as when things are felt or considered to be absolute (is fear é; is iontach í (like your child)) whereas when they are mutable or the thing in question has undergone change, then tá/bí etc is used (tá sé ina fhear anois; tá sí ina cailín maith anois, ach bhí sí dána an mhaidin seo chaite

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013 2:10 pm 
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Here's another good example

Nuair a bhí sé ina gharsún = When he was a boy / When he was in his boyhood

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