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 Post subject: Re: Is féidir liom
PostPosted: Tue 27 Sep 2011 12:11 am 
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Quote:
But ar is never reduced to [əj], which air can be.


both can be [ej] in Gaoth Dobhair, I have got recordings of that.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


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 Post subject: Re: Is féidir liom
PostPosted: Tue 27 Sep 2011 7:49 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
both can be [ej] in Gaoth Dobhair, I have got recordings of that.

Really? I’ve never heard that …

Can you give the context(s) in which this might happen?

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Not a native speaker.

Always wait for at least three people to agree on a translation, especially if it’s for something permanent.

My translations are usually GU (Ulster Irish), unless CO (Standard Orthography) is requested.


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 Post subject: Re: Is féidir liom
PostPosted: Sat 06 Jul 2013 9:38 am 
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Joined: Sat 06 Jul 2013 9:07 am
Posts: 9
Lughaidh wrote:
The man who made the recordings doesn't pronounce properly... as usual. As if it were impossible to find native speakers in the country, mallacht Dé!
*osna* :rolleyes:


Hi Lughaidh,
I'm aware that I am two years late!
However, late is better than never.
I'm the man who made the recordings... who doesn't pronounce properly!
Would you like to discuss?
Seamus


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 Post subject: Re: Is féidir liom
PostPosted: Sat 06 Jul 2013 10:20 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
Not all of it, but anyway, for some reason, anytime I listen to learning stuff, I come across sentences that aren't properly pronounced.
Btw, you say "any Irish is better than no Irish", but good Irish isn't more expensive than bad Irish. It's just as easy to ask native speakers.
If the recordings were done in Ireland, they could just ask any native speaker (in ainm Dé, it isn't difficult to find native speakers there! go to the Gaeltacht and you'll find thousands of them), instead of someone who doesn't pronounce properly.


Lughaidh, a chara,
Very few teachers of Irish prepare online teaching materials for free to improve their methodology to assist the learner (you disparagingly call it 'learning stuff').
Please be so kind as to suggest the name of a native speaker (I prefer not from Gaoth Dobhair), who will work for free with me to help me improve my teaching resources so that learners can use them free of charge to the benefit of the Irish language.

You obviously are a proud native speaker from Gaoth Dobhair (and from your 'mana' have little regard for native speakers from elsewhere). You need to realise that more than 90% of primary and secondary teachers (all of those who teach Irish and I am among them) are NOT native speakers.

Seamus


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 Post subject: Re: Is féidir liom
PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul 2013 7:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri 09 Sep 2011 2:06 pm
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seamusoneill wrote:

Lughaidh, a chara,
Please be so kind as to suggest the name of a native speaker (I prefer not from Gaoth Dobhair)


Why not from Gaoth Dobhair?


Quote:
You obviously are a proud native speaker from Gaoth Dobhair


Nach ar Lughaidh a bheas an lúcháir sin a chluinstin... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Is féidir liom
PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul 2013 10:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm
Posts: 2436
Quote:
You obviously are a proud native speaker from Gaoth Dobhair (and from your 'mana' have little regard for native speakers from elsewhere).


obviously you didn't see the smiley...
Ok I prefer Gaoth Dobhair Irish personally because I find it more beautiful than all others, but this is just a personal opinion: it's not better than any other Gaeltacht dialect, it's just as interesting and important.

Quote:
(you disparagingly call it 'learning stuff').


I had no idea it was disparaging (?)... English isn't my first language so I don't always know what are the nuances of certain words. I thought "stuff" was a common and neutral word... Is it right to say "learning material" instead?

Quote:
You need to realise that more than 90% of primary and secondary teachers (all of those who teach Irish and I am among them) are NOT native speakers.


I know that, the problem is that they should try to pronounce like native speakers, just like teachers of any other language. In the learning material of 99% of the natural languages, the recordings are made by native speakers (I know 4 exceptions: Breton, Irish, Manx and Cornish, but these last two languages have no native speakers left ; Breton and Irish still have quite a lot...)

Sorry if you felt insulted by my comment, I didn't know you were here and I didn't intend to be nasty. I just regret that so many learning materials don't provide a pronounciation that is native-like. Finding Gaeltacht native speakers isn't that hard, especially when you live in Ireland. You could even contact RnaG and ask them to make an advertisement "a native speaker from XYZ Gaeltacht is needed to record a few sentences" in some program...
I'll send you a private message

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


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 Post subject: Re: Is féidir liom
PostPosted: Mon 08 Jul 2013 1:00 am 
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Posts: 1527
Breandán wrote:
Be wary also of the pronunciation of younger school-age kids, though, Faber, as it is considered "cool" by some kids in the Gaeltacht to modify their pronunciation away from the traditional pronunciation of their parents and make themselves sound more like the non-native school learners, a kind of peer-group pressure towards the non-native norm in schools.

I'm not saying that that is necessarily the case with your young friend, and I'd love to hear the recording one day, but there are all sorts of hidden pitfalls with "native" speakers of various ages. (At the other extreme, many old recordings of monoglot speakers were of people who had few teeth left in their mouths, and if you mimicked them, you'd sound like you had a "native" lisp. ;) )


:LOL: a native lisp!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v5hw2Ie44M ;) :LOL:

Ach mar adubhairt sé fhéinig nín sé aige'n sgoil fós!

I don't think the main problem, in the majority of cases, is school children adopting non-native pronunciation from their peers. I think its more to do with parents, with native pronunciation and Irish, not passing on the language to their children at home. Therefore, the childrens' only source of Irish pronunciation is in school; where more than likely their teachers are from outside the Gaeltacht regions and who themselves may not have mastered correct pronunciation.

The vast majority of Gaeltacht regions have their own primary and pre-primary schools and a lot have their own secondary (high-) schools. Therefore, most of the children attending the schools are from the Gaeltacht region; any galltacht child (I hate using the term) would be in the minority and it makes no sense for the majority to adopt the pronunciation of the minority, especially in the case of children. In fact, it would be more likely that the Galltacht minority would adopt the regional, native pronunciation in these situations. But like I said, language transmission has been severed in many cases in the Gaeltacht and the language of the home is now English and their only source of Irish, is that of "school Irish", with teachers who have poor pronunciation skills.

However, I can see how the problem of children modifying their pronunciation due to their peers occurring in regions where there is no primary and/ or secondary school and therefore Gaeltacht children receive their education outside of the Gaeltacht; where they become the minority. Therefore their native pronunciation and Irish may be viewed as odd and incorrect (as that's the psyche and mentality that the standard creates). They may even be mocked for speaking bog or farmer Irish! It wouldn't take long for them to switch then.

The lack of Gaeltacht secondary schools used to be more of a problem in the past when there wasn't many. Although, with the current cut-backs schools are under pressure to remain open and I think one has already closed in the Donegal Gaeltact not so long ago.

Cian

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Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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 Post subject: Re: Is féidir liom
PostPosted: Mon 08 Jul 2013 3:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat 06 Jul 2013 9:07 am
Posts: 9
Interesting topic and a very interesting forum. Surprisingly, I just happened to wander onto the forum while surfing the web only to find a discussion of my work of more than 10 years. The Irish language is of great interest to me as I have taught the Gaeilge for over forty years to children, teachers and parents. In that time I have't seen the revival of Irish nor have I seen its extinction either. I have however, seen Irish change because the world in which we live has changed and it's constantly changing only at a greater rate than ever. Changes that have impacted on the Irish language are technology, immigration, emigration, the status of Irish in the EU, the growth of Gaelscoileanna and the cost of maintaining support for Irish when our government is cutting funding on vital services.

Tá ard-mheas agam ar an nGaeilge. Labhraím í. Scríobhaim í. Léim í. Múinim í. Ach ní chainteoir ó dhúchais mé. Ba mhinic dom nuair a bhí mé i mo mhac léinn, saoire a chaitheamh i gCorcha Dhuibhne nó i gConnamara agus bhain mé an-taitneamh agus an-tairfe as bheith ann. Dá mbarr tá líofacht agam ach is léir do chách nach cainteoir ó dhúchais mé - rud is fíor do mhormhór múinteoirí. I rith na blianta, ní raibh comhalta múinteoir ón nGaeltacht ag obair liom. Is gá do chainteoirí ó dhúchais a admháil go bhfuil tromlach na Gaeilge á labhairt taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Tá Gaeilge na Gaeltachta an-tabhacht ach más mian linn an Ghaeilge a chaomhnú is gá dúinn obair le chéile. . . "Ar scáth a chéile a mhairimid."

I guess I have as much a right (and obligation) as anyone, to teach my Irish to Russians, Poles, Lithuanians, Africans, Americans, English, Northern Irish etc. etc. who never learned Irish before and whose main interest in Irish is that their children attend school in Ireland. What's more, we have an obligation to be as creative and imaginative as possible to ensure that, above all they have a positive experience of Irish (and not have too high an expectation that they will emulate native speakers.)


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 Post subject: Re: Is féidir liom
PostPosted: Mon 08 Jul 2013 3:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon 29 Aug 2011 4:54 pm
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Location: Cill Dara
Tá fáilte romhat anseo, a Sheamus. :wave: I hope you visit us regularly now that you have found us. Forty years of teaching experience should make for some interesting contributions to the forum. The members of ILF range from people with no Irish whatsoever to learners of all standards and includes fluent and native speakers. The diversity is what makes the forum interesting and also fuels some of the more heated discussions. :mrgreen:

What binds us all together is our interest in Irish. :party: Fáilte!

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Is foghlaimeoir mé. I am a learner. DEFINITELY wait for others to confirm and/or improve.
Beatha teanga í a labhairt.


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 Post subject: Re: Is féidir liom
PostPosted: Mon 08 Jul 2013 4:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat 18 Aug 2012 11:43 pm
Posts: 723
Location: Nua Mheicsiceo
seamusoneill wrote:
What's more, we have an obligation to be as creative and imaginative as possible to ensure that, above all they have a positive experience of Irish (and not have too high an expectation that they will emulate native speakers.)

I think emulating native speakers is a good thing. If you were to learn Spanish or French, for example, do you think it would be a good idea to try to pronounce the words as much like a fluent native speaker as possible?

I'm learning Irish on my own, but I still try my best to say everything like a native speaker. And if I were fortunate enough to have a teacher someday, I would hope that they'd have a very high expectation of me to learn to pronounce Irish words like a native speaker. I personally think that learning fluent native pronunciation does not detract from having a positive learning experience at all; it's part of the fun of learning a different language. Teaching native pronunciation also shows that you value the language enough to take the time and effort to teach it to the highest standard.


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