Hi guys

I will not be bothering you any more. I am sending this last post in order to show you what made me investigate Celtic (Irish) - Serbian (Not slavic in general) parallels.

Have a look at this. When I was I kid I remember seeing an old wooden cross standing in the middle of a field just outside my dad’s village. It was at the edge of the village land and it was a place where village "slava" or the ancestral celebration was celebrated every year. It was always covered in flowers and people used to bring food and drink to it and light candles in front of it. This is still a living tradition in Serbia...

Imagine my surprise when later in life i discovered "celtic" crosses...

The same area of Serbia has a peculiar grammatical construct. They use "na" to express belonging:

Q: "na koga je ovo kuče" (of or on whom is this hound) whose hound is this? This implies belonging or owning being equaled to having the thing in question on one person. this construct is used only for material goods and animals and not for members of the family.

A: na petra. (of or on peter)

ovo je kuče na petra (this is the hound on or of petar)


Anyway thought you might find this interesting.

If anyone wants to discuss the irish serbian parallels you can contact me with a private message.

Thank you and god bless...

The histories of the various tribes and languages in Europe are interwoven and it is sometimes difficult to separate one from the other. While it is interesting to investigate the connections, it is best not to get too emphatic about what can probably never be proven directly.

ILF is primarily a forum for people who want to learn and use the contemporary Irish language, not a place to come and diss it. While we are interested in historical aspects of the language as well, that is not our main aim here on this forum, and theories about the possible past of the language most certainly shouldn't be accompanied by disparaging remarks about the contemporary language.

At one point you said:



Many of us here have Irish as our first language or use Irish with our children as the main language at home and in the community to encourage them in school and show them by example that the people you describe are ignorant and wrongheaded.

If you ever change your mind and decide to make a positive effort to learn the contemporary language, please come back and learn with us. We feel much more receptive to "interesting" theories when we know the holder of those theories is also making a positive contribution to the revival of the contemporary Irish language.

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

I was in Malta recently and they had neolithic tomb's circa 3000 bc which look exactly like the one in Newgrange in Ireland of the same period, they had the same art and everything (those 'Irish' swirls). I wouldn't be a linguistic expert but it is obvious the peoples of Europe had common ideas etc. Its fascinating to think they were developing the same way so far away, I wonder was this because of contact? or the spread of similar culture? or were there a common European people? It's clear to me that Ireland wasn't as insular as some assume today. Just because the Roman's didn't get here doesn't mean the people before them weren't capable.

There are similar crosses like that in various parts of France, known as 'croix pâttées', as well as the traditional tombstones in the Basque Country which you couldn't describe as being specifically Celtic.
It is generally accepted that the Celtic peoples came from the somewhere around the Steppes and moved westward through Eastern Europe. I think I've seen recent research about the Celts coming to Ireland from the Iberian Penisula, though they probably would not have originated from there. This is all in Pre-Historic times, before the beginnings of Christianity. I seem to remember having seen articles about possible indications of Christianity in Ireland as early as the 3rd or 4th century, so no Celtic crosses before then.
Here's a brief look at an important exhibition that took place at La Cité des Sciences at La Villette in Paris about Les Gaulois, including recent finds of religious (pre-Christian) artifacts - their Celtic cousins in Ireland might have had similar rituals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPX3sisyruY
Paris, l'exposition sur les gaulois à la Villette, novembre 2011 (thetriton95)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GH_m-ruZREA
Fouille du sanctuaire gaulois de Tintignac (Corrèze), en 2004 (InrapOfficiel)
and there's also the Coligny Calendar that has connections with Old Irish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coligny_calendar

I also wanted to say that megalithic monuments predate the arrival of the Celts. Often French people have this misconception, probably because they've read the Astérix comics.

Hi Brendan

I said:



and then you said:



I believe that your reaction is typical for Ireland and it's attitude towards it's own culture and language.

Everyone is an Irish nationalist but they don't know what Irish means. And as i can see here no one cares to find out "because we already know everything we need to know, and anyway who are you to come here telling us who we are...". Remember Des Bishop...
Everyone speaks Irish but less than 15% use it every day. And i doubt that the percentage is that high. And when you ask people: "why do you say this in this way?" or "why is this spelled this way and pronounced this way?" no one knows. Even people who teach Irish at schools. Trust me i asked both native Irish speakers and Irish language teachers and they both just shrugged and said: "T'is just the way it's done". And when i ask the same questions here my posts are blocked? Why? Because the "Irish" don't care to find out the truth. They like their myths about their "Celtic" language and culture better. Have you ever heard of a guy called Bob Quinn and his documentary series and the book "The Atlantean Irish: Ireland's Oriental and Maritime Heritage"? He was spat on what he released it many years ago.
Everyone is proud of the Irish heritage yet 60% of all hysterical sites noted during the last British land survey have been destroyed by the Irish in last 100 years.
My wife's family is an old cork IRA clan, related to Michael Collins. They are all nationalistic and yet none of them speak Irish. And when they were bulldozing through Tara few years ago they were laughing at people who were trying to protest.
At least i am trying to learn something about the Irish culture, History and language before it disappears. Maybe i don't know how to order a pint in Irish, but i can bet you i know more Irish language and Irish history than most Irish people i have met in last 20 years. Actually most Irish people find talking about Irish language and history boring, even those who speak fluent Irish. When I talk to most Irish people about the Irish history they look at me as if i have two heads. First they can't understand why a bother. And second they can't believe the things i am telling them. Do you know how many people think that Newgrange was built by the Celts?

Read "The Origins of the Irish" by J. P. Mallory. See what he says about who today's Irish are. Basically no one knows.

I have been an Irish citizen for last 17 years. My son is half Irish and half Serb and i would like him to know as much as possible about both peoples history and culture. I would love if he spoke both Serbian and Irish, but i would like him to know why he is saying what he is saying. Maybe i am doing all this for him, because i don't want him to be brainwashed by the popular rubbish taught about both the Irish and the Serbs and their histories.

So what ever you say, i believe that i care more about the Irish culture and i am doing more for the Irish culture than you think.

And for the end, there are obviously some academics who think that researching Slavic - Celtic cultural connections is not so "crazy". For instance:



One mistake they are making is that they are concentrating on the east slavic languages. It is the south slavic languages that preserved the most of the original proto slavic and proto celtic material.

anyway...

Somhairle Óg

Find this book and if you can the accompanying dvd. I remember talking to Bob years ago (1999) but that was during the war in Kosovo and Serbs were the devils of this world so he had no time to discuss any possible connections. However he finds cultural and linguistic connections between the irish and all the people surrounding the serbs. Except the serbs. funny. But very good book never the less.

http://www.lilliputpress.ie/book/307/qu ... itage.html



have a look at this as well. this is his website i believe.

http://www.conamara.org/

franc



You would expect that considering the connection between Ireland and Frankish kingdoms in the early medieval time. Irish missionaries were behind the first christian holy war in Europe which the Franks lead against the pagan Wends (North western Slavs). Read life of st Columbanus. But Serbia had no (known) cultural contacts with that part of the world for at least 1000 years before the first "Celtic" crosses started appearing in Ireland. And did you know that the Earliest known example of the Celtic cross in Ireland was found in viking Dublin? It was made from wood. The earliest stone Celtic crosses were found in Pictish part of Scotland and came to Ireland via Iona and Ossory. The whole "Celtic" bit is highly doubtful.

Thanks, I will check out the book & DVD. Of course I knew Newgrange predated the Celt's I just find in interesting how similar European cultures were as far back as 3000-5000bc, I know you are looking specifically at the Celt's, but I can see how if culture's were similar 3000 years ago then it's entirely plausible what your suggesting.