It is currently Mon 29 Jun 2026 10:02 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: guard - garda - gar do?
PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013 12:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue 02 Apr 2013 12:25 pm
Posts: 22
Quote:
guard (n.)
early 15c., "one who keeps watch," from Middle French garde "guardian, warden, keeper; watching, keeping, custody," from Old French garder "to keep, maintain, preserve, protect" (corresponding to Old North French warder, see gu-), from Frankish *wardon, from Proto-Germanic *wardo- "to guard" (see ward (v.)). Abstract or collective sense of "a keeping, a custody" (as in bodyguard) also is from early 15c. Sword-play and fisticuffs sense is from 1590s. Guard-rail attested from 1860.


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=guard

gar (do) = close (to)(adj)(near):

What do you think, what is the chance of gar do (to stand close to) be the root of the verb to guard, and the name for the noun guard and garda...

Old military societies always included royal body guards...who stood next to, stood near the person they guarded.
Also if you were guarding cattle you needed to stand near to it to guard it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013 12:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 01 Mar 2013 3:50 pm
Posts: 171
dublin wrote:
Quote:
guard (n.)
early 15c., "one who keeps watch," from Middle French garde "guardian, warden, keeper; watching, keeping, custody," from Old French garder "to keep, maintain, preserve, protect" (corresponding to Old North French warder, see gu-), from Frankish *wardon, from Proto-Germanic *wardo- "to guard" (see ward (v.)). Abstract or collective sense of "a keeping, a custody" (as in bodyguard) also is from early 15c. Sword-play and fisticuffs sense is from 1590s. Guard-rail attested from 1860.


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=guard

gar (do) = close (to)(adj)(near):

What do you think, what is the chance of gar do (to stand close to) be the root of the verb to guard, and the name for the noun guard and garda...

Nonexistent. You're going about this all wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013 1:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun 17 Feb 2013 6:21 pm
Posts: 78
Considering the etymology of the word "guard", that's pretty much impossible.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013 1:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm
Posts: 2436
I agree, the similarity is mere coincidence. Nouns don't come from an adjective followed by a preposition :)
"Gar" looks like a Celtic word (see http://www.dil.ie/ )

Garda etc are Germanic things that mean different things.

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue 02 Apr 2013 12:25 pm
Posts: 22
Let me see:

1. "Celts" controlled most of Europe during bronze age and early iron age.
2. They were a military society living in hillforts
3. There is a construction in gaelic "gar do" close to, which is what you do when you are guarding something like cattle or a chieftain which gives meaningful root to word guard and verb to guard
4. There is no such a root in german or frankish


And you still think that it was germans who invented the word guard and verb to guard?

Don't you think that it could be that germans, hearing gardo, gardo all the time associated the word with guarding something and started using it in its bastardized form?

and what about this:

Irish gaelic

gar m (genitive gair, nominative plural garanna)
nearness, proximity

Scots gaelic

Pronoun

gar

us (direct object)
Cò a bhios gar cuideachadh? - Who will help us?

from close (together, us)

Verb

gar (verbal noun garadh)

warm

a' garadh an làmhan ris an teine - warming their hands at the fire

to worm yourself. this is truly ancient, as people used to huddle together to worm themselves before fire was "invented".

So you can build nouns and verbal nouns from adjectives....

Guys you should be proud of your language. it has preserved some of the oldest European words.

Question:

Is it possible that Slavic Gard, Gord, Gorod, Garod, Hrad all meaning place where people live close together and are guarded by high walls (ard to elevate or elevated, ga spear, javelin) also comes from "celtic" root to be together, on the high ground guarded by people with spears? Is it possible that Slavs in central Europe, who built gards, got the word from the "celts" who also lived there

Just to add that germans did not build gards they built burgs....

of course there is also this:

gar

Quote:
From Middle English gar, gare, gere, gore, from Old English gār (“spear, dart, javelin, shaft, arrow, weapon, arms”), from Proto-Germanic *gaizaz (“spear, pike, javelin”), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰayso- (“pointed stick, spear”), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰey- (“to drive, move, fling”). Cognate with West Frisian gear, Dutch geer (“pointed weapon, spear”), German Ger (“spear”), Norwegian geir (“spear”), Icelandic geir (“spear”). Related to gore.


Quote:
Old Irish has gae "spear"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period_spear

Quote:
A gord is a medieval Slavic fortified settlement, also occasionally known as a burgwall or Slavic burgwall after the German name for these sites. The ancient peoples were known for building wooden fortified settlements. The reconstructed Centum-satem isogloss word for such a settlement is g'herdh, gordъ, related to the Germanic *gard and *gart (as in Stuttgart etc.). This Proto-Slavic word (*gordъ) for town or city, later differentiated into grad (Cyrillic: град), gard,[1][2] gorod (Cyrillic: город), etc.[3][4][5] The most explicit derivatives from grad are the Croatian word Gradjanski (Croatian: Građanski) and the Russian word Grazhdanye (Russian: Граждане) both means citizens.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gord_(archaeology)
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gard

Quote:
Slavic names: Prior to the medieval Ostsiedlung, Slavic languages like Polabian, Sorbian, Pomeranian, and Slovenian were spoken in the eastern parts of the Holy Roman Empire. The German settlers and administration in many cases adopted existing Wendish placenames, for example Rostock (from Old Polabian rostok, "river fork"), Dresden (from Sorbian Drežďany), and Berlin (possibly from a Polabian word meaning "Swamp"). For the same reason, many German placenames ending in -anz (e.g. Ummanz), -gard (e.g. Burg Stargard), -gast (e.g. Wolgast), -itz (e.g. Lancken-Granitz), -ow (e.g. Gützkow), and -vitz or -witz (e.g. Malschwitz) have Slavic roots. Due to spelling and pronunciation changes over the centuries, the original Wendish term in most cases is not preserved. Also, some placenames combine a German with a Wendish term (e.g. Altentreptow). The German suffix -au can be related to the Slavic -ow and -ov when derived from the Old German spelling (u= w =double u; e.g. Prenzlau was earlier spelled Prenzlow).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_placename_etymology

Quote:
Similar strongholds were built during the late Bronze and early Iron Ages by the people of the Lusatian culture (ca. 1300 BC – 500 BC), and later in the 7th - 8th centuries CE in modern-day Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic and eastern Germany. These settlements were usually founded on strategic sites such as hills, riverbanks, lake islands or peninsulas.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gord_(archaeology)

In light of all this, what do you think?


Last edited by dublin on Thu 04 Apr 2013 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013 4:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 01 Mar 2013 3:50 pm
Posts: 171
dublin wrote:
1. "Celts" controlled most of Europe during bronze age and early iron age.
2. They were a military society living in hillforts
3. There is a construction in gaelic "gar do" close to

This is where you go off the rails.

Between the time when the Celts dominated Europe and the present day, you're looking at a gap of more than 2000 years. Languages can and do change a great deal in that time--just compare modern French to Caesar's Latin. What evidence do you have that the expression gar do goes back even 200 years let alone 2000? Does it even exist in Old Irish? Are there parallel expressions in Welsh or Gaulish?

This is what etymological research is all about. If you can't answer these questions convincingly, then you're just grasping at straws, trying to find whatever support you can for your pet theories. As I say elsewhere, it's the equivalent of trying to do archaeology with nothing more than a garden trowel.

dublin wrote:
Is it possible that Slavic Gard, Gord, Gorod, Garod, Hrad all meaning place where people live close together and are guarded by high walls (ard being to elevate, ga spear, javelin) also comes from "celtic" root to be together, on the high ground guarded by people with spears? Is it possible that Slavs in central Europe, who built gards, got the word from the "celts" who also lived there

It is not possible. We already know what the etymology of gard, gord, etc. is. It's PIE *ǵʰortós from a root *ǵʰer- meaning "enclose". This etymology is the work of countless scholars applying a rigid methodology for nearly two centuries; you're not going to improve on it with fifteen minutes of Googling and looking for sound-alike words in a couple of dictionaries.

Did you actually come to this forum to learn the Irish language? Seems you're only interested in it as something to comb dictionaries for to find chance resemblances to words in your native language. You don't need a forum for that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013 4:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue 02 Apr 2013 12:25 pm
Posts: 22
I am interested in discovering the part of irish which is a remnant of the Old European language.

I was hoping to discus and clarify certain things regarding my understanding of the Irish language.

If this is not the place to do so please advise me where to go.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013 4:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun 17 Feb 2013 6:21 pm
Posts: 78
dublin wrote:
Is it possible that Slavic Gard, Gord, Gorod, Garod, Hrad all meaning place where people live close together and are guarded by high walls (ard to elevate or elevated, ga spear, javelin) also comes from "celtic" root to be together, on the high ground guarded by people with spears? Is it possible that Slavs in central Europe, who built gards, got the word from the "celts" who also lived there

Some time ago, when I only started studying linguistics, I, too, used to think that English "guard" and Slavic "gorod" / "grad" are related. But they are not, and it's confirmed by many dictionaries. If anything, "grad" is related to "garden" and "yard". The word "guard" comes from a different root.

Check the "garden" entry on etymonline. Or, if you can read Russian, check Фасмер or Черных dictionaries for "город".

For the same reasons, "gar do" has nothing to do with any of these words.

Added:
dublin wrote:
I am interested in discovering the part of irish which is a remnant of the Old European language.

I was hoping to discus and clarify certain things regarding my understanding of the Irish language.

If this is not the place to do so please advise me where to go.

The problem is not that this is the wrong place. It may well be the right one. But you need to use different methods to approach this subject. The laws of languages are not so strict as the laws of physics, but they are still laws. As I said before, there are rules as to how one word can come from another or how the words of different languages can change with time.
If you want, I can recommend you some books on linguistics and etymology.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013 5:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm
Posts: 2436
Quote:
What evidence do you have that the expression gar do goes back even 200 years let alone 2000? Does it even exist in Old Irish?


there are many examples of "gar" (do) in the DIL dictionary (Old and Middle Irish etc).
I'll have a look at Welsh to see if there's a cognate but I think there is.

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne
:)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013 5:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 01 Mar 2013 3:50 pm
Posts: 171
Lughaidh wrote:
Quote:
What evidence do you have that the expression gar do goes back even 200 years let alone 2000? Does it even exist in Old Irish?


there are many examples of "gar" (do) in the DIL dictionary (Old and Middle Irish etc).
I'll have a look at Welsh to see if there's a cognate but I think there is.

Lughaidh, a chara, tá an freagra agam cheana féin. 'Sé an rud atá ar intinn agam ná léiriú donár gcara Balcánach an áit go mbeadh sé ar a lorg agus an dóigh.

dublin wrote:
I am interested in discovering the part of irish which is a remnant of the Old European language.

I was hoping to discus and clarify certain things regarding my understanding of the Irish language.

If this is not the place to do so please advise me where to go.

As I understand it, the stated aims of this forum are to help people gain an active command of the Irish language--to understand and use it in person and online. Discussions relating to hypothetical connexions between its linguistic ancestors and the unknown languages of pre-Indo-European Europe are well outside its scope.

Frankly, I'm not sure where to direct you. There are some good sites out there for etymological discussions, but they presuppose some basic acquaintance with historical linguistics. As Pangur says, try reading a book on the subject. In particular, the linguist R. L. Trask has written quite extensively and accessibly on the topic.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 501 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group