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 Post subject: . . . na hÉireann
PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb 2013 5:34 pm 
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Éire is one of those countries that doesn't take the definite article. Unlike "An Fhrainc" and "An Spáinn" we never say "An Éire." We just say "Éire."

So why does it take the definite article in the genitive? "Muintir na hÉireann," "Uachtarán na hÉireann," "Banc na hÉireann" etc. Why not "An Banc Éireann"?

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 Post subject: Re: . . . na hÉireann
PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb 2013 6:43 pm 
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Mick wrote:
Éire is one of those countries that doesn't take the definite article. Unlike "An Fhrainc" and "An Spáinn" we never say "An Éire." We just say "Éire."

So why does it take the definite article in the genitive? "Muintir na hÉireann," "Uachtarán na hÉireann," "Banc na hÉireann" etc. Why not "An Banc Éireann"?


The definite article in those cases refers to the first noun, not to Ireland. "THE People of Ireland," "THE President of Ireland," "THE Bank of Ireland," etc.

As far as why we don't put the article in front of the first nouns...that I'm not sure how to explain. Perhaps one of our more learned grammar folks can clear it up for us. All I can say for certain is, if I saw "An Banc Éireann," I'd translated it as "The Irish Bank" rather than "The Bank of Ireland," but that doesn't really explain much, I'm afraid!

Redwolf


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 Post subject: Re: . . . na hÉireann
PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb 2013 7:02 pm 
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I would have thought that "The Irish Bank" would be "An Banc Éireannach." :dhera:

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 Post subject: Re: . . . na hÉireann
PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb 2013 8:51 pm 
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Mick wrote:
I would have thought that "The Irish Bank" would be "An Banc Éireannach." :dhera:


Either would work, actually...at least technically. One of the functions of the genitive case is to establish an adjectival relationship between two nouns.

I suspect that countries and nationalities are a special case.

Redwolf


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 Post subject: Re: . . . na hÉireann
PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb 2013 10:58 pm 
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Mick wrote:
I would have thought that "The Irish Bank" would be "An Banc Éireannach." :dhera:

Well, in this case, it means "The Irish Bank" which can potentially mean something different, but yes, it can work. Being an adjective, Éireannach describes "An Banc".

Whereas in "Banc na hÉireann" we are dealing with the dealing with genitive case, possession.

Please correct me if I have something wrong, somebody :)


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 Post subject: Re: . . . na hÉireann
PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2013 12:30 am 
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Gumbi wrote:
Mick wrote:
I would have thought that "The Irish Bank" would be "An Banc Éireannach." :dhera:

Well, in this case, it means "The Irish Bank" which can potentially mean something different, but yes, it can work. Being an adjective, Éireannach describes "An Banc".

Whereas in "Banc na hÉireann" we are dealing with the dealing with genitive case, possession.

Please correct me if I have something wrong, somebody :)


Well, the genitive case isn't just about possession...it's also about creating adjectives out of nouns. Mick's question has to do with why we use the definite article in these genitive constructions when the nominative Éire doesn't take the definite article.

Redwolf


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 Post subject: Re: . . . na hÉireann
PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2013 1:00 am 
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Redwolf wrote:
Gumbi wrote:
Mick wrote:
I would have thought that "The Irish Bank" would be "An Banc Éireannach." :dhera:

Well, in this case, it means "The Irish Bank" which can potentially mean something different, but yes, it can work. Being an adjective, Éireannach describes "An Banc".

Whereas in "Banc na hÉireann" we are dealing with the dealing with genitive case, possession.

Please correct me if I have something wrong, somebody :)


Well, the genitive case isn't just about possession...it's also about creating adjectives out of nouns. Mick's question has to do with why we use the definite article in these genitive constructions when the nominative Éire doesn't take the definite article.

Redwolf


It might have something to do with Éire being a given name/ first name. Old Irish Ériu. There's an old dindshenchas story as to how Ireland was given her name. Supposedly, there was a race between 3 sisters (Ériu, Banba, Fódla) of the Tuath Dé. The winner would receive the honour of having the country named after her. Ériu won the race, however, Banb(h)a Fó/odhla (modern Irish) are sometimes also used in literature.

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I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


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 Post subject: Re: . . . na hÉireann
PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2013 1:40 am 
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Using Éireann without "na h-" isn't something new nor an abbreviation (you find it in traditional songs etc). Well, at least in the older texts it wasn't an abbreviation :) Maybe it is in modern stuff like "Banc Éireann"...
I don't know why both do exist, because it looks like there's no difference in meaning.

Btw, you also don't use the article before "Albain" in the nominative, but in the genitive you do say "na hAlban(a)"... In Scottish Gaelic they also say "Alba" in the nominative and "na h-Alba" in the genitive.

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 Post subject: Re: . . . na hÉireann
PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2013 3:08 am 
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You'll definitely see both in songs. I was just typing out the words to "Dóchas Linn Naomh Pádraig" today and noticed that in the first verse we have "Aspal mór na hÉireann" and in the second verse we have Pádraig aspal Éireann." In translating the song, I've always rendered the first as "The great apostle of Ireland" and the second as "Patrick Ireland's apostle," but I'm thinking there's really not that much difference between the two in Irish.

Redwolf


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 Post subject: Re: . . . na hÉireann
PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2013 9:57 am 
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Nor does Sasana take the definite article.


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