Changes to Focal.ie

an_t-uaithneach · **Posted:** Thu 20 Sep 2012 9:46 pm

Bríd Mhór wrote:

Like in Bord na gCon - actually that is probably the only context I've heard it.

That's genitive plural though, isn't it?

Bríd Mhór wrote:

In Welsh afaik they call all dogs "ci". Which sounds like it's related to "cú". But I don't know enough Welsh to know if they differienciate between dogs.

Yep, Welsh ci just means "dog" in the ordinary sense and is related to Irish cú, which has a specialized meaning, just like German Hund just means "dog" in the ordinary sense and is related to English hound, which has a specialized meaning.

Saoirse · **Posted:** Thu 20 Sep 2012 9:49 pm

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

Mol Thuaidh- North PoleFocal.ie gives Pol Thuaidh

Bríd Mhór wrote:

Pol Thuaidh - I've never heard that before

And I've just checked out my kids' letters from the man himself - Daidí na Nollag and his address at the top of the letter is 'An Mol Thuaidh' - and he should know! :mrgreen:

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

Yep, Welsh ci just means "dog" in the ordinary sense and is related to Irish cú, which has a specialized meaning, just like German Hund just means "dog" in the ordinary sense and is related to English hound, which has a specialized meaning.

Welsh ci, Breton ki, Gaelic languages cú, English hound, Greek kuon, Latin canis etc all come from the same Indo-European root (Indo-European k' normally becomes h in the Germanic languages) see:

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ ... P1080.html

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

an_t-uaithneach wrote:

That's genitive plural though, isn't it?

Yeah, but for Cú the genitive plural and singular are the same, as is typical for -n type genitives.

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

uaithneach wrote:

There's a new Caighdeán Oifigeamhail?

That's right, this was posted originally awhile back, around the time the new Caighdeán Oifigeamhail came out.

Lughaidh wrote:

If I remember well, cú, cú, cúnna, cúnna are the CO forms. (I don't know if there are native speakers who use them somewhere, or if they are an invention of the creators of the CO)
Cú, con, coin etc are traditional.

I am pretty sure focal.ie had Cú, con etc... before.

Lughaidh wrote:

Personally I never heard and seldom read cú in Irish. People rather talk about madaidh etc, because people have dogs, not hounds, most of the time

In mythology, they use cú, cf Cú Chulainn (genitive Con Culainn..., I think)

Con Culainn/ Con Culaind :good:

and the Dative was also Coin. Ya madaidh or madadh/mada/madra(dh)/ gadhar are most prevalent now as they are pets. But in earlier times people would have used dogs for hunting, protection or for fighting in battles.

Gumbi wrote:

Hmmm. Pol thuaidh is really weird. I've always said an Mol Thuaidh. That reeks of "let's make it slightly more like English for no apparent reason".

Ya that's exactly what I thought too...if you search focal.ie for bar/ pub you'll find "beár", if you want to find the proper word i.e teach/tigh tábhairne you have to put in "public house"..."public house" might be archaic in English but it's not in Irish...tigh/teach (an) óil isn't even mentioned. Toast is another one, "tósta"- arán tíortha. Focal.ie used to be very good in giving a wide range of Irish words when you searched, but now, it seems, you have to be very specific.

Saoirse wrote:

I've just checked out my kids' letters from the man himself - Daidí na Nollag and his address at the top of the letter is 'An Mol Thuaidh' - and he should know! :mrgreen:

yep he should! Don't think the letters would have reached him if it were an "Pol Thuaidh" . Send the letters to "an Pol Thuaidh" and just blame focal.ie if all the presents they want don't arrive :twisted:

Lughaidh wrote:

Welsh ci, Breton ki, Gaelic languages cú, English hound, Greek kuon, Latin canis etc all come from the same Indo-European root (Indo-European k' normally becomes h in the Germanic languages) see:

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ ... P1080.html

Funny enough Madra and Madadh aren't Indo- European, those words developed before or after the Celtic language arrived in Ireland.

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Cú the genitive plural and singular are the same, as is typical for -n type genitives.

An Lon Dubh remember we were talking about the singular dative of bó was "boin", the dative of "cú" is "coin"- that construction looks very similar.

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

Funny enough Madra and Madadh aren't Indo- European, those words developed before or after the Celtic language arrived in Ireland.

how do we know it's not IE, since we don't know anything about the language that was spoken in Ireland before the Celtic languages?

an_t-uaithneach · **Posted:** Fri 21 Sep 2012 8:43 pm

Lughaidh wrote:

how do we know it's not IE, since we don't know anything about the language that was spoken in Ireland before the Celtic languages?

Well, it's impossible to prove a negative. When someone says something like "Madadh and madra aren't Indo-European" what it means is just there's no evidence that they are: no cognates in other IE languages, etc. Coincidentally, the English word dog has just as obscure an etymology as Irish madadh/madra.

Gumbi · **Joined:** Tue 06 Sep 2011 8:09 pm **Posts:** 943

an_t-uaithneach wrote:

Lughaidh wrote:

how do we know it's not IE, since we don't know anything about the language that was spoken in Ireland before the Celtic languages?

Well, it's impossible to prove a negative. When someone says something like "Madadh and madra aren't Indo-European" what it means is just there's no evidence that they are: no cognates in other IE languages, etc. Coincidentally, the English word dog has just as obscure an etymology as Irish madadh/madra.

I don't fully agree here. Unless there is evidence to suggest the contrary, you can't have a stance on it. You simply don't know. I know I'm being nit-picky, but whatever.

an_t-uaithneach · **Posted:** Fri 21 Sep 2012 10:12 pm

I think of it like a court case. If there's insufficient evidence to "convict" the word of being Indo-European (or whatever), then the word is "acquitted" of the charge of being IE. Since I'm not from Scotland, I don't have the third option of "not proven".

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

I think the best solution then is to say "we don't know what is the origin of the word madadh/madra".
Full stop. There's no evidence that it's IE and there's no evidence that it's not IE... so it's better to keep things like that :mrgreen:

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