Since when did it become a sin to mention that someone has bad Irish? I was on Duolingo (probably mistake number 1), and someone asked for a transcription of part of one of Clisare's videos. I gave the transcription, then mentioned that there was some stuff she didn't say correctly, both in pronunciation and grammatically. Then one user came and went off on me saying how I was the reason nobody wanted to speak Irish in public, because they'd be publicly ridiculed and shamed. Since when did it become a sin to mention that poor Irish is poor Irish? Especially on a forum dedicated to learning Irish? It's not like I went up to Claire herself and said "Hey, your Irish sucks." or that I discouraged anyone in the video from speaking. I just mentioned it in passing on a language learning site. This dude also criticizes the new speaker for speaking like a native, and not pronouncing everything as it's written. Calls it "poor enunciation" that is harmful to learners. Since when is speaking like a native harmful to learners?! Said person also tried to tell me that cad atá tú ag déanamh is correct, when it isn't even in the Caighdeán...

Also, apparently someone messaged the guy I was discussing this with saying they're never going to talk to me again because I dare hold up native Irish as the best example of good Irish and that he was sick of the foolishness.

Here's the thread in general.


But, seriously... Since when did it become a mortal sin to call out bad Irish? Have any of y'all had problems like this? Like, it's great people are trying, but we can't just sit around and let them continue to speak what is basically English with funny words. Because that's what the majority of it is, outside of basic syntax. Just kinda rambling and wondering why this is. Nobody would ever excuse piss-poor French like this, or piss-poor German. Would they?

Edit: He also just posted this: .

So, aparently, because "Irish speakers" (I mean, how much of a speaker are they if they can't even say things like "I see the man who bought the car"?) go through 'trials and tribulations', we should let them off with bad Irish.

Ná cuir do chuid ama amú lena leithéid do dhaoiní. Ní thuigfidh siad choíche agus ní dhéanfaidh siad athchomhairle. Agus ní labhairfidh siad Gaeilg mhaith choíche.
Abair leofa goidé do bharúil, agus muna bhfuil siad sásta leis, ná bac. Chaith mise féin cuid mhaith ama ag iarraidh 'n scéal a mhíniú do dhaoiní mar sin, ó thaobh don droch-Ghaeilg agus don droch-Bhriotáinis fosta. Ach ní thuigeann siad go deo. Cha dtig leat mórán a dhéanamh más amadáin iad.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

This seems to be an issue everywhere. When I caution learners not to emulate Clisare's pronunciation, my throat gets jumped down on a regular basis. How dare I question her pronunciation? Don't I know that Irish has many dialects? And she's an Irish person who lives in Ireland...surely she knows better than I do!

Then there are the vocabulary memes that go around Facebook, most of them promoted by Irish Language Learners, and virtually all of which have major mistakes. Point those out and you're some kind of horrible Scrooge who's trying to trample on someone else's efforts that they've made "out of the goodness of their hearts." Arggg.

Redwolf

Surely Redwolf this is not the first time that you have encountered the little fascists of the western world?
This is now the attitude of the one-book young elite
coming through the educational system. You must only speak of what they approve of, in the way they approve and any deviation is looked upon as "lesser". I think it is their way of covering up their lack of an all-round education and their willingness to be offended. Look at Facebook or Twitter any day and weep/

I agree. I once got removed from a learner's group on Facebook because I dared question the usefulness of using English sounds to represent Irish words, as if there was no difference between them. I believe the example was me saying the second syllable of fágáil isn't basically English "isle". I then got told I needed grammar classes because I used Connacht form of verbs.

Thankfully, though, I haven't had this experience on the Duolingo groups for the most part; there I get called out more often for not praising Duolingo above all other language tools. People seem pretty open to Irish corrections, thankfully. It's just really annoying that there's this culture based around Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla cliste (which I've ironically seen more often written as Gaeilge briste). That's what's causing this entire mess, in my opinion. the stupid attitude that they shouldn't be corrected because they're "trying" and "it's not English."

Sadly, this is going to be how the language dies...or basically becomes a Pidgin that's English in everything except for vocab and the most basic of syntax. Poor schooling can be a reason for learning bad Irish, but it shouldn't be an excuse to not improve. It's ridiculous.

It's something I really have a hard time wrapping my brain around. Why bother to learn a language if you don't want to learn it well?

More often than once I've had someone say to me "well, the purpose of language is communication, not perfect pronunciation." And then they don't understand why they can't understand native speakers!

And I agree: "Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béala cliste" is fine when it's used to encourage learners to use their Irish, but it's a problem when it's used to excuse sloppy learning.

The other one I've found myself at odds with is a YouTube video in which a North American (I don't know if she's from the U.S. or Canada) presents the "sounds of Irish." Some of it's not too bad, but then she gets to broad "d" and broad "t" and says "they're pronounced just like "d" and "t" (the presumption being that they're exactly like "d" and "t" in English). It shouldn't take much of an ear to hear that they're NOT pronounced as they are in English. Even if you can't figure out how to articulate them, it should be clear that it's not the same sound.

Redwolf

"Because it's my native language, and I speak it how I'd speak English. My English accent came from Irish, so it's obviously correct."



See "Schism fears for Gaelgoirí" link



Sadly the latter is more common than the former. And if you dare correct and help them, well, somehow you're stopping the former.





If it's the video I think it is, she's from Chicago, and an active Irish teacher there.

There is this 'Irish word of the day' from transparent language or something. It was just awful and dreadful with mangled Irish and horrible translations. I wrote them a scathing email saying they should be ashamed that they hired someone who couldn't even handle a "word of the day" so bad was his/her Irish. I think that was a year ago. Lately I think they have been better; perhaps that idiot got fired.

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ЯГОН ТОҶИК НЕСТ ИНҶО???

Is í an fhadhb atá againn nach bhfuilimid in ann daoine eile a fháil. Is cuma den domhan na daoine a bhfuil droch-Ghaeilge acub nuair atá daoine a bhfuil Gaeilge mhaith acub ann freisin. Ach mura bhfuil, céard atá le déanamh ach fearg a ghlacadh ort?

Chun an fhírinne a insint, níl an iomarca imní orm faoin rud sin, cé gur mór an trua é. Ach uaireanta tagann lagar spride ar dhuine go deimhin. Féach ar na daoine deasa atá ar ILF, mar shampla, agus ansin ar an gcuid atá i do cheantarsa féin.

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ЯГОН ТОҶИК НЕСТ ИНҶО???

The old IGTF (after it was taken over and run into the ground by Epiracle) offered a "word of the day" via email that was pathetically bad. Typically the word didn't mean what they said it meant. Bríd subscribed for a while, for the craic, and she'd post the worst offenders here.

Redwolf