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 Post subject: Setanta
PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2016 3:29 am 
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Short version: In desperate desire of an abridged version of the story of Setanta defeating The Hound as Gaeilge, OR help with the version posted below.

[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]

... a friend ... sent me the following transcription ... but parts of this aren't even translated at all so I'm wondering if he just plugged it into an Internet translator and sent it to me to get me out of his hair. :/

"Setanta thuill ainm nua tar gníomh iontach ar misneach. Rí Conor, cuireadh féasta ag teach Cúláin, gabha, d'iarr Setanta dul in éineacht leis. Bhí Setanta ag imirt cluiche ar camán ag an am agus dúirt go mbeadh sé a leanúint a uncail go gairid. Nuair a shuigh gach duine síos go dtí an féasta, d'iarr Cúláin an Rí dá mbeadh tháinig go léir na haíonna ag súil leo agus an Rí Conchúr fhreagair go raibh siad, forgetting faoi Setanta. Cúláin Unchained a chú ollmhór a garda an teach.
Aineolach ar an baol atá romhainn an buachaill óg tháinig ar an teach Cúláin s. An madra fí léim ag Setanta, a raibh ach a bata camán agus liathróid leis. Ainneoin gur tógadh an Beast ferocious an buachaill flung an liathróid síos scornach an ainmhí. Cuireadh iachall ar an cú ar ais ag an buille agus bhí sé Setanta ann a grab an cú ag a chosa agus bain a cheann ar an gclós cloiche.
Nuair a chuala Conchúr an cú howling chuimhnigh sé ar Setanta agus rith taobh amuigh ag súil a fháil dó torn chun píosaí. Bhí sé iontas a fheiceáil dó ndéantar aon dochar, seasamh os cionn an cú marbh. Cuireadh taomanach an gabha ag an radharc a mhadra tar éis titim. Setanta, cé gan milleán sa duel, vowed a chur ar an áit an madra, a chosaint ar an pas Uladh isteach sa, agus tháinig an Cú Cúláin - Cú Chulainn."


I've also the English version of this if it'd help; ask and I'll post that as a comment below.

[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]

To raibh maith agaibh a milliún.


Last edited by Breandán on Fri 05 Aug 2016 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]


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 Post subject: Setanta
PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2016 6:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm
Posts: 3001
sionnachbeag wrote:
Short version: In desperate desire of an abridged version of the story of Setanta defeating The Hound as Gaeilge, OR help with the version posted below.

[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]

... a friend ... sent me the following transcription ... but parts of this aren't even translated at all so I'm wondering if he just plugged it into an Internet translator and sent it to me to get me out of his hair. :/

"Setanta thuill ainm nua tar gníomh iontach ar misneach. Rí Conor, cuireadh féasta ag teach Cúláin, gabha, d'iarr Setanta dul in éineacht leis. Bhí Setanta ag imirt cluiche ar camán ag an am agus dúirt go mbeadh sé a leanúint a uncail go gairid. Nuair a shuigh gach duine síos go dtí an féasta, d'iarr Cúláin an Rí dá mbeadh tháinig go léir na haíonna ag súil leo agus an Rí Conchúr fhreagair go raibh siad, forgetting faoi Setanta. Cúláin Unchained a chú ollmhór a garda an teach.
Aineolach ar an baol atá romhainn an buachaill óg tháinig ar an teach Cúláin s. An madra fí léim ag Setanta, a raibh ach a bata camán agus liathróid leis. Ainneoin gur tógadh an Beast ferocious an buachaill flung an liathróid síos scornach an ainmhí. Cuireadh iachall ar an cú ar ais ag an buille agus bhí sé Setanta ann a grab an cú ag a chosa agus bain a cheann ar an gclós cloiche.
Nuair a chuala Conchúr an cú howling chuimhnigh sé ar Setanta agus rith taobh amuigh ag súil a fháil dó torn chun píosaí. Bhí sé iontas a fheiceáil dó ndéantar aon dochar, seasamh os cionn an cú marbh. Cuireadh taomanach an gabha ag an radharc a mhadra tar éis titim. Setanta, cé gan milleán sa duel, vowed a chur ar an áit an madra, a chosaint ar an pas Uladh isteach sa, agus tháinig an Cú Cúláin - Cú Chulainn."


I've also the English version of this if it'd help; ask and I'll post that as a comment below.

[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]

To raibh maith agaibh a milliún.


Yes, better give us the original English. :LOL:


Last edited by Breandán on Fri 05 Aug 2016 12:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]


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 Post subject: Setanta
PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2016 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm
Posts: 1527
Hi [sionnachbeag],

You were right not to trust your friend, he just seems to have put it through Google Translate.

The tale of 'The Slaying of the Hound' is one of an amalgam of anecdotes concerning Cú Chualainn's youth, known as Na Macgnímrada Con Chualainn, or 'The Boyhood Deeds of Cú Chualainn'. The Macgnímarada are related to Medb by Fergus and they form part of probably the most well known tale in Irish literature: Táin Bó Cuailnge ('The Cattle Raid of Cooley').

Here's the oldest version of the tale that has survived, written in 8th/ 9th century Irish (diplomatic transcription), and preserved in the Lebor na hUidre manuscript (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G301900/ , i.e. a digitised copy of Best and Bergins edition):

Aided con na cerda inso la Coin Culaind & aní día fil Cú Chulaind fairseom ('The Slaying of the hound of the Smith here by Cú Chulainn and how the name Cú Chulainn was bestowed upon him')


Rafetammár ém in gilla sin ol Conall Cernach & ní messaite fria fis is dalta dún. Nípu chían iarsin gním adchúaid Fergus indossa co ndernasom bét n-aile. Dia forgéni Cauland cerdd oegidacht co Conchobur asbert Cauland iarom nábad sochaide no bertha chucai áir nípu du thír na ferund dó a fuirec dorigni acht do thorud a dá lám & a tharnguir. Luid Conchobar iarom & .l. cairptech imbi do neoch {folio 60b} ba sruthem & ba haeregdu inna caurad.

Adell Conchobar laiss iarom a cluchemag. Ba bés dano dó do grés a n-adall & a tadall oc techt & oc tuidecht do chuingid a bennachda cosna maccu. Co n-accai iarom Coin Culaind oc áin líathroti frisna trí cóectu mac & birt a ráena forru. In tan ba háin phuill dognitis. no linadsom in poll dia liathrotib & ni chumcaitis in meic a ersclaige. In tan batir heseom ule dobictis in poll arachlichedsom a óenur conná téged cid óenlíathróit ind. In tan bá n-imtrascrad dognítís dorascradsom na tri .l. mac a oenur. & ni chomraiced imbiseom lín a trascartha. In tan dano bá n-imdírech dognítis dosnergedsom uli co mbítís tornochta. & nocon ructaísseom im cid a delg asa brotsom nammá.


Ba hamra la Concobar aní sind. Asbertsíde in etarbíad a gnímu acht tised dóib co áes ferdatad. Asbert cách etardabíad. Asbeir Concobar fri CoinCulaind. Tair lem ol se dond fleid día tíagom dáig ot áegi. Nimda sátech dom cluchi béos a bobba Chonchobair ol in gilla ragatsa in far ndíaid.


O ráncatár uli iarom dond fleid. Asbert Cauland fri Concobar in frithalid nech infar ndíaid ol se. Náthó ol Conchobar. nírbo chuman laiss dal a daltai inna díaid. Atá árchú .i. cú doratad dar muir .i. cuilen brotcon. lemsa ol Culand. tri slabrada fair & triar cacha slabraide. A hEspáin dosfucad. Leicther de dáig ar n-indili & ar cetra & duntar in less.


Tic in gilla fo sodain. Fónópair in cú. Nos fethedsom a cluche colleic. Focherded a líathróit & focherded a loirg ina díaid com mbenad in liathroit. Níbo moo in band oldas a chéle & focheird a bunsaid inna ndíaid conda gebed re totim. & niro tairmesc a cluchi immi. ce ro boí in cú oca ascnam. Torbaís Conchobar & a muinter aní sin connarbo etir leo a ngluasacht indar léo ni faircbitís i mbethaid ara cind cid ersloicthe in less. In tan didiu dolluid in cú chucaiseom focheirdseom úad a líathróit & a loirg. & frisíndle in coin cona díb lámaib .i. dobeir indara láim dó fri ubull bragat in chon. Dobeir araile fria chúl bentai frisin corthe inna farrad co sescaind cach ball de a lethe. Mad iar n-arailiu im is a líatróit ro lásom inna beolu co rruc a inathar thrít.

Comérgit Ulaid ara ammus. araill dib for less. araill for dorus liss. Damberat i n-ucht Conchobair. Fochertar armgrith mór leo .i. mac sethar ind ríg di folmaisiu a báis. Dothéit Culand issa tech la sodain. Fo chen duit a maccain fo déig cridi do máthar Messe im ní mád airgénus fleid. Is bethu immudu & is trebad immaig mo trebad i ndegaid mo chon. Conággaib ainech & anmain damsa ol se in fer muintire ruccad úaim .i. mo chú. Robo dín & ditiu diar feib & ar n-indili. Ropo imdegail cacha slabra dún eter mag & tech. Ni mór bríg ol in gilla ébéltair culén din chúani chétna lemsa duit & bíam cúsa do imdegail do chethra & dot imdegail féin colléic cor ása in cú hísin & corop ingníma. & imdíusa Mag Murthemne uile noco mberthar uaimse eit na halma ass manip aúrderg limsa. Bid Cú Culaind t'ainmsiu íarom or Cáthbad. Maith lem cid ed mo ainm ol Cú Fer dorigni sin amdar lána a .ui. bliadna nipu machdad cé doronadside dagním ind inbuid sea in tan ata lána a secht mbliadna déc ol Conall Cernach.

******

The section pertaining to the killing of the hound itself is as follows:

In tan didiu dolluid in cú chucaiseom focheirdseom úad a líathróit & a loirg. & frisíndle in coin cona díb lámaib .i. dobeir indara láim dó fri ubull bragat in chon. Dobeir araile fria chúl bentai frisin corthe inna farrad co sescaind cach ball de a lethe. Mad iar n-arailiu im[murgu]* is a líatróit ro lásom inna beolu co rruc a inathar thrít.

Indeed, when the hound came to him (Cú Chulainn), he threw his ball and hurley (literally 'shin bone') from him. And he tackles the hound with his two hands, i.e. he grabs the hound's Adam's apple with one of his hands. He grabs his back with the other; he strikes him (the hound) against the pillar that is beside him so that he sprang apart (tore) all half of his limbs. However, if it be according to another [version of the tale], it is [when] he had fired his ball into his mouth and when he dragged his entrails through him [that the hound was slain].

*im is an abbreviation for immurgu, meaning 'however'.

*******

Oh PS, if you want to get it in Insular Script (the type of font used by the Irish until the 1940s), here's what it would look like:

In tan didiu dolluid in cú chucaiseom focheirdseom úad a líathróit &* a loirg. & frisíndle in coin cona díb lámaib .i. dobeir indara láim dó fri ubull bragat in chon. Dobeir araile fria chúl bentai frisin corthe inna farrad co sescaind cach ball de a lethe. Mad iar n-arailiu im[murgu] is a líatróit ro lásom inna beolu co rruc a inathar thrít.

I have kept the lenitions as h, because traditionally, before the late 1300s, the ponc (puntum deletum) was usually only used as a marker of lenition on f and s. This is because the ponc was traditionally used in Latin to erase a mistake and therefore it fits perfectly as a marker for a lenited f, as it has no sound; so it is basically as if it is deleted.

*& symbolises Latin et, meaning 'and'; or ocus in Old Irish, agus in Modern Irish. & is also used in Irish; however, , is more common and is in fact a further Irish abbreviation of et, where the stroke stands for -t.

*******

Here's the actual tale in the manuscript itself:

https://www.isos.dias.ie/resources/image.html

Your tale starts in column A, the last large letter (i.e. R, but it may look more like a wonky -n to you). The section concerning the 'killing of the hound' begins in column B, middle of the 11th last line, decorated with a red dot. It reads IH tan ... . What looks like a H is actually a capital n. The section ends on the 5th line from the bottom (last word).

The correct spelling of Setanta in proper Old Irish would be Sétantae (shay'd-an-ta), some people mispronounce it as Set-an-ta.

Cian

_________________
Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


Last edited by Breandán on Fri 05 Aug 2016 12:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]


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 Post subject: Setanta
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul 2016 12:40 am 
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Joined: Wed 13 Jul 2016 2:02 am
Posts: 2
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Hi [sionnachbeag],

You were right not to trust your friend, he just seems to have put it through Google Translate.

The tale of 'The Slaying of the Hound' is one of an amalgam of anecdotes concerning Cú Chualainn's youth, known as Na Macgnímrada Con Chualainn, or 'The Boyhood Deeds of Cú Chualainn'. The Macgnímarada are related to Medb by Fergus and they form part of probably the most well known tale in Irish literature: Táin Bó Cuailnge ('The Cattle Raid of Cooley').

Here's the oldest version of the tale that has survived, written in 8th/ 9th century Irish (diplomatic transcription), and preserved in the Lebor na hUidre manuscript (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G301900/ , i.e. a digitised copy of Best and Bergins edition):

Aided con na cerda inso la Coin Culaind & aní día fil Cú Chulaind fairseom ('The Slaying of the hound of the Smith here by Cú Chulainn and how the name Cú Chulainn was bestowed upon him')


Rafetammár ém in gilla sin ol Conall Cernach & ní messaite fria fis is dalta dún. Nípu chían iarsin gním adchúaid Fergus indossa co ndernasom bét n-aile. Dia forgéni Cauland cerdd oegidacht co Conchobur asbert Cauland iarom nábad sochaide no bertha chucai áir nípu du thír na ferund dó a fuirec dorigni acht do thorud a dá lám & a tharnguir. Luid Conchobar iarom & .l. cairptech imbi do neoch {folio 60b} ba sruthem & ba haeregdu inna caurad.

Adell Conchobar laiss iarom a cluchemag. Ba bés dano dó do grés a n-adall & a tadall oc techt & oc tuidecht do chuingid a bennachda cosna maccu. Co n-accai iarom Coin Culaind oc áin líathroti frisna trí cóectu mac & birt a ráena forru. In tan ba háin phuill dognitis. no linadsom in poll dia liathrotib & ni chumcaitis in meic a ersclaige. In tan batir heseom ule dobictis in poll arachlichedsom a óenur conná téged cid óenlíathróit ind. In tan bá n-imtrascrad dognítís dorascradsom na tri .l. mac a oenur. & ni chomraiced imbiseom lín a trascartha. In tan dano bá n-imdírech dognítis dosnergedsom uli co mbítís tornochta. & nocon ructaísseom im cid a delg asa brotsom nammá.


Ba hamra la Concobar aní sind. Asbertsíde in etarbíad a gnímu acht tised dóib co áes ferdatad. Asbert cách etardabíad. Asbeir Concobar fri CoinCulaind. Tair lem ol se dond fleid día tíagom dáig ot áegi. Nimda sátech dom cluchi béos a bobba Chonchobair ol in gilla ragatsa in far ndíaid.


O ráncatár uli iarom dond fleid. Asbert Cauland fri Concobar in frithalid nech infar ndíaid ol se. Náthó ol Conchobar. nírbo chuman laiss dal a daltai inna díaid. Atá árchú .i. cú doratad dar muir .i. cuilen brotcon. lemsa ol Culand. tri slabrada fair & triar cacha slabraide. A hEspáin dosfucad. Leicther de dáig ar n-indili & ar cetra & duntar in less.


Tic in gilla fo sodain. Fónópair in cú. Nos fethedsom a cluche colleic. Focherded a líathróit & focherded a loirg ina díaid com mbenad in liathroit. Níbo moo in band oldas a chéle & focheird a bunsaid inna ndíaid conda gebed re totim. & niro tairmesc a cluchi immi. ce ro boí in cú oca ascnam. Torbaís Conchobar & a muinter aní sin connarbo etir leo a ngluasacht indar léo ni faircbitís i mbethaid ara cind cid ersloicthe in less. In tan didiu dolluid in cú chucaiseom focheirdseom úad a líathróit & a loirg. & frisíndle in coin cona díb lámaib .i. dobeir indara láim dó fri ubull bragat in chon. Dobeir araile fria chúl bentai frisin corthe inna farrad co sescaind cach ball de a lethe. Mad iar n-arailiu im is a líatróit ro lásom inna beolu co rruc a inathar thrít.

Comérgit Ulaid ara ammus. araill dib for less. araill for dorus liss. Damberat i n-ucht Conchobair. Fochertar armgrith mór leo .i. mac sethar ind ríg di folmaisiu a báis. Dothéit Culand issa tech la sodain. Fo chen duit a maccain fo déig cridi do máthar Messe im ní mád airgénus fleid. Is bethu immudu & is trebad immaig mo trebad i ndegaid mo chon. Conággaib ainech & anmain damsa ol se in fer muintire ruccad úaim .i. mo chú. Robo dín & ditiu diar feib & ar n-indili. Ropo imdegail cacha slabra dún eter mag & tech. Ni mór bríg ol in gilla ébéltair culén din chúani chétna lemsa duit & bíam cúsa do imdegail do chethra & dot imdegail féin colléic cor ása in cú hísin & corop ingníma. & imdíusa Mag Murthemne uile noco mberthar uaimse eit na halma ass manip aúrderg limsa. Bid Cú Culaind t'ainmsiu íarom or Cáthbad. Maith lem cid ed mo ainm ol Cú Fer dorigni sin amdar lána a .ui. bliadna nipu machdad cé doronadside dagním ind inbuid sea in tan ata lána a secht mbliadna déc ol Conall Cernach.

******

The section pertaining to the killing of the hound itself is as follows:

In tan didiu dolluid in cú chucaiseom focheirdseom úad a líathróit & a loirg. & frisíndle in coin cona díb lámaib .i. dobeir indara láim dó fri ubull bragat in chon. Dobeir araile fria chúl bentai frisin corthe inna farrad co sescaind cach ball de a lethe. Mad iar n-arailiu im[murgu]* is a líatróit ro lásom inna beolu co rruc a inathar thrít.

Indeed, when the hound came to him (Cú Chulainn), he threw his ball and hurley (literally 'shin bone') from him. And he tackles the hound with his two hands, i.e. he grabs the hound's Adam's apple with one of his hands. He grabs his back with the other; he strikes him (the hound) against the pillar that is beside him so that he sprang apart (tore) all half of his limbs. However, if it be according to another [version of the tale], it is [when] he had fired his ball into his mouth and when he dragged his entrails through him [that the hound was slain].

*im is an abbreviation for immurgu, meaning 'however'.

*******

Oh PS, if you want to get it in Insular Script (the type of font used by the Irish until the 1940s), here's what it would look like:

In tan didiu dolluid in cú chucaiseom focheirdseom úad a líathróit &* a loirg. & frisíndle in coin cona díb lámaib .i. dobeir indara láim dó fri ubull bragat in chon. Dobeir araile fria chúl bentai frisin corthe inna farrad co sescaind cach ball de a lethe. Mad iar n-arailiu im[murgu] is a líatróit ro lásom inna beolu co rruc a inathar thrít.

I have kept the lenitions as h, because traditionally, before the late 1300s, the ponc (puntum deletum) was usually only used as a marker of lenition on f and s. This is because the ponc was traditionally used in Latin to erase a mistake and therefore it fits perfectly as a marker for a lenited f, as it has no sound; so it is basically as if it is deleted.

*& symbolises Latin et, meaning 'and'; or ocus in Old Irish, agus in Modern Irish. & is also used in Irish; however, , is more common and is in fact a further Irish abbreviation of et, where the stroke stands for -t.

*******

Here's the actual tale in the manuscript itself:

https://www.isos.dias.ie/resources/image.html

Your tale starts in column A, the last large letter (i.e. R, but it may look more like a wonky -n to you). The section concerning the 'killing of the hound' begins in column B, middle of the 11th last line, decorated with a red dot. It reads IH tan ... . What looks like a H is actually a capital n. The section ends on the 5th line from the bottom (last word).

The correct spelling of Setanta in proper Old Irish would be Sétantae (shay'd-an-ta), some people mispronounce it as Set-an-ta.

Cian


8O :panic: 8O :panic: 8O

Cian!!!

I am so positively GOBSMACKED, I literally had tears in my eyes when I read your response ... Just. Stunned. This blew me away, you have completely exceeded my hopes and expectations, I don't know how to thank you a complete stranger for taking time out of their day to respond like this. What an enormous wealth of knowledge and information. 8O :razz: (also feeling completely inadequate as an Internet researcher... :oops: )

[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]

GRMA
GRMA
GRMA
:GRMA:

I cannot believe my knucklehead of a friend didn't just tell me he wasn't the man for the job... glad I followed my instinct. Where's my hurley?! I owe him a good smack... Grr!! :LOL:

Once again, you've been a blessing.

Ever in your debt,
[sionnachbeag]


Last edited by Breandán on Fri 05 Aug 2016 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]


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 Post subject: Setanta
PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul 2016 4:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm
Posts: 1527
sionnachbeag wrote:

8O :panic: 8O :panic: 8O

Cian!!!

I am so positively GOBSMACKED, I literally had tears in my eyes when I read your response ... Just. Stunned. This blew me away, you have completely exceeded my hopes and expectations, I don't know how to thank you a complete stranger for taking time out of their day to respond like this. What an enormous wealth of knowledge and information. 8O :razz: (also feeling completely inadequate as an Internet researcher... :oops: )

[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]

GRMA
GRMA
GRMA
:GRMA:

I cannot believe my knucklehead of a friend didn't just tell me he wasn't the man for the job... glad I followed my instinct. Where's my hurley?! I owe him a good smack... Grr!! :LOL:

Once again, you've been a blessing.

Ever in your debt,
[sionnachbeag]


:D

Your gratitude is plenty thanks :) . You'd be surprised how often people don't even say that!

You do sound very excited!

The link to the manuscript isn't working above.

Here's a way around the issue; click on the link and follow the instructions below:

https://www.isos.dias.ie/english/index.html

-Collections
-Royal Irish Academy
-Scroll down the left hand side, until you see: Leabhar na hUidhre
-Click the shelfnumber: MS 23 E 25
-On the left hand side, you'll see page numbers: click p. 58- p. 77.
-Choose page 60.
-Follow the instructions as per my original post.

Cian

_________________
Is Fearr súil romhainn ná ḋá ṡúil inár ndiaiḋ
(Amhlaoibh Ó Súilleabháin)

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice


I'm familiar with Munster Irish/ Gaolainn na Mumhan (GM) and the Official Standard/an Caighdeán Oifigiúil (CO)


Last edited by Breandán on Fri 05 Aug 2016 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
[Some sensitive personal information has been removed at the request of the original poster.]


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