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PostPosted: Thu 14 May 2015 6:47 pm 
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chevygarrido1959 wrote:
NiallBeag wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
Gumbi wrote:
Arm Neartmhar Ungtha Dé na Laethanta Deireanacha[/b]
.


I'd think you cannot use "Dé" and a second genitive with "na".
"Arm" is made definite ("the army") by "Dé" so no additional article is possible.

Not quite. First of all, the rule evaluates from inside out, deepest genitive first, so right-to-left. A definite to the right obviates the need for one to the left, but not the other way round.

(In fact, it was suggested to me last week that this rule is taught completely wrong in Scottish Gaelic, and I suspect the same holds for Irish -- the rule I was told last week is that only the leftmost, genitive marked noun can take the article, and everything else is qualified by the noun below it (analogous to how you can't say "John's brother's the son is John's the nephew in English", although word order here is reversed).)

Now... is it possible to have two rightmost nouns? Actually yes, and it's best shown by breaking the phrase down into its components.

Consider that the following is not a subpart of the nounphrase:
.. Dé na Laethanta Deireanacha
It is not referring to a "God of the final days", so "God" is leftmost in a subphrase, and "the final days" is leftmost in the full phrase.



I'm noticing that the preposition "de" (of) is missing for "Arm Neartmhar Ungtha Dé (de) na Laethanta Deireanacha". Because, just like you said, It is not referring to a "God of the final days", but "God's anointed mighty army of the final days." Am I correct?

Chevy
"de" is "of" in the sense seen in "a box of biscuits" or "one of the men". It denotes a part or a quantity. We're not talking about "one of" the final days here, but the final days in their entirety.

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PostPosted: Thu 14 May 2015 10:21 pm 
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Is it still being worked? Or is there a final conclusion?

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PostPosted: Sun 17 May 2015 12:16 am 
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An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Eaglais Shoiscéalaíochta na Laochra Paidreoireachta Idirnáisiúnta: Arm Neartmhar Ungtha Dé dena Laethanta Deireanacha

-Eaglais is feminine

-Laochra: As far as I know, broad endings don't tend to lenite the following word.

-Dena: I think having dena makes the sense clearer?

That was a mouthful, in the end it was hard to know who owned what :LOL: .

Just from looking at your emblem http://www.iglesiainternacional.cl/engl ... ?photoId=8 , it seems as if the "Evangelical Church" part is a separate entity (a seperate sentence) to the "international prayer warriors".

If you are trying to recreate this emblem in Irish it would go as follows, reading from top to bottom:

-Laochra Paidreoireachta Idirnáisiúnta-

-Greasán Domhanda- 'Worldwide Network'

-Ie é Íosa an Tiarna- 'Jesus is Lord'

-An Airm Ollchumhachtach/ Neartmhar Ungtha Dé dena Laethanata Deireanacha-

-Eaglais Shoiscéalaíochta-

This looks like the best solution. I'm unsure about the use of 'dena' though.

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PostPosted: Sun 17 May 2015 4:06 am 
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Murchadh wrote:
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Eaglais Shoiscéalaíochta na Laochra Paidreoireachta Idirnáisiúnta: Arm Neartmhar Ungtha Dé dena Laethanta Deireanacha

-Eaglais is feminine

-Laochra: As far as I know, broad endings don't tend to lenite the following word.

-Dena: I think having dena makes the sense clearer?

That was a mouthful, in the end it was hard to know who owned what :LOL: .

Just from looking at your emblem http://www.iglesiainternacional.cl/engl ... ?photoId=8 , it seems as if the "Evangelical Church" part is a separate entity (a seperate sentence) to the "international prayer warriors".

If you are trying to recreate this emblem in Irish it would go as follows, reading from top to bottom:

-Laochra Paidreoireachta Idirnáisiúnta-

-Greasán Domhanda- 'Worldwide Network'

-Ie é Íosa an Tiarna- 'Jesus is Lord'

-An Airm Ollchumhachtach/ Neartmhar Ungtha Dé dena Laethanata Deireanacha-

-Eaglais Shoiscéalaíochta-

This looks like the best solution. I'm unsure about the use of 'dena' though.


So how would it go? Just "de" or "na"?

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PostPosted: Mon 18 May 2015 3:58 pm 
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Like NiallBeag, I think 'de' can't be used here, and that the two genitives are okay (though I got a bit lost with the "rightmost/leftmost" directions). As he says, it isn't "the army of the endtime God" - which would be arm Dhia na laethanta deireanacha; it's "the endtime army of God", which would be arm De na laethanta deireanacha. That's my understanding of the rule anyway, but I'm certainly open to correction.

So, Chevy, I suggest:

Arm ungtha mórchumhachtach Dé na laethanta deireanacha (which, apart from 'mórchumhachtach', is what Gumbi had). But get it confirmed first.

'Mighty army' is translated as 'arm mórchumhachtach, in 'An Foclóir Nua', but 'neartmhar' would do too.


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PostPosted: Mon 18 May 2015 10:44 pm 
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Errigal wrote:
Like NiallBeag, I think 'de' can't be used here, and that the two genitives are okay (though I got a bit lost with the "rightmost/leftmost" directions). As he says, it isn't "the army of the endtime God" - which would be arm Dhia na laethanta deireanacha; it's "the endtime army of God", which would be arm De na laethanta deireanacha. That's my understanding of the rule anyway, but I'm certainly open to correction.

So, Chevy, I suggest:

Arm ungtha mórchumhachtach Dé na laethanta deireanacha (which, apart from 'mórchumhachtach', is what Gumbi had). But get it confirmed first.

'Mighty army' is translated as 'arm mórchumhachtach, in 'An Foclóir Nua', but 'neartmhar' would do too.


But we are talking about "God's mighty army OF THE end of times," just like NiallBerg wrote "one" of the end of times.

Feagra.net translated it this way: Arm Neartmhar Ungtha Dé de na Laethanta Deireanacha."

And a top translator wrote his version: Arm coisricthe mórchumhachtach Dé i ndeireadh an tsaoil." Though I'm not sure of the "an tsaoil", because it means "world", "end of the world".. Also they wrote me that either the one Feagra.net and what they sent is both correct. But what is the translation that the top translator gave me?

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Last edited by chevygarrido1959 on Tue 19 May 2015 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 19 May 2015 4:06 am 
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chevygarrido1959 wrote:
 
Errigal wrote:
Like NiallBeag, I think 'de' can't be used here, and that the two genitives are okay (though I got a bit lost with the "rightmost/leftmost" directions). As he says, it isn't "the army of the endtime God" - which would be arm Dhia na laethanta deireanacha; it's "the endtime army of God", which would be arm De na laethanta deireanacha. That's my understanding of the rule anyway, but I'm certainly open to correction.

So, Chevy, I suggest:

Arm ungtha mórchumhachtach Dé na laethanta deireanacha (which, apart from 'mórchumhachtach', is what Gumbi had). But get it confirmed first.

'Mighty army' is translated as 'arm mórchumhachtach, in 'An Foclóir Nua', but 'neartmhar' would do too.


But we are talking about "God's mighty army OF THE end of times," just like NiallBerg wrote "one" of the end of times.

Feagra.net translated it this way: Arm Neartmhar Ungtha Dé de na Laethanta Deireanacha."

And a top translator wrote his version: Arm coisricthe mórchumhachtach Dé i ndeireadh an tsaoil." Though I'm not of the "an tsaoil", because it means "life", "end of life". Also they wrote me that either the one Feagra.net and what they sent is both correct. But what is the translation that the top translator gave me?


A "top translator" where?

I have to say again...you can't apply English idioms to Irish. The preposition really ISN'T wanted here. You use "de" when you're talking of one out of a selection.

"Deireadh an tsaoil" means "The end of the world."

Redwolf


Last edited by Redwolf on Tue 19 May 2015 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 19 May 2015 12:33 pm 
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It might even end up as - deireach an fhreagra (and you don't need de there either) ;)


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PostPosted: Tue 19 May 2015 12:34 pm 
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Gotta agree. I'm queasy about the use of "de" and outright disagree with the use of "i ndeireadh an tsaoil". Na laethanta deireanacha, as well as being in the actual Irish Bible, is a more accurate translation.


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PostPosted: Tue 19 May 2015 1:49 pm 
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Errigal wrote:

Arm ungtha mórchumhachtach Dé na laethanta deireanacha (which, apart from 'mórchumhachtach', is what Gumbi had). But get it confirmed first.


:good: , I was trying to use 'de' as a means of breaking the genitive; so instead of 'of' or 'of something', I was trying to say something along the lines of 'for the end of days'. May be 'le haighaidh' would have been a better option to express that?

I would still be happy to go with the phrase quoted above though :good:

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