Well, it's been a week since the Los Angeles Deireadh Seachtaine Gaeltachta! I had a truly wonderful time there, and really hope that I have the chance to go back next year!

This is their third year organizing a DSG down in L.A., and they're doing a wonderful job. I'm so glad that these weekends are expanding on the West Coast! California's a big state (it's a six-and-a-half-hour drive from San Francisco to Los Angeles...about five hours from where we live near Santa Cruz), and not everyone who'd like to attend an immersion weekend can afford the time or the money to travel far from home. Having one in the major southern city and one in the major northern city helps a lot (and those of us who can manage it also benefit from having both!). Now all we need is one up in Eureka for the Del Nortes and the folks from Southern Oregon! Northern Oregon has Portland, so we're gradually working our way along the coast!

It was fun to see so many familiar faces too. Before the L.A. weekend got started, several hard-core Irish learners from Southern California regularly made the trek up to San Francisco for our weekend at the end of September/beginning of October (some still do), and it was great fun to visit them on their home ground.

The classes were held in a beautiful Spanish colonial building near Griffith Park (near Hollywood) owned by the Columban Fathers, who very graciously donated the space, allowing the organizers to lower the cost substantially ($180! Heck of a deal!). Several priests live upstairs (including one from Ireland who came down and practiced his cúpla focal with us once or twice), and we had the use of two big downstairs rooms and a nice, sunny, upstairs patio area (early May is not a bad time at all to sit outside in Southern California, so long as you remember your sunscreen!).

Only downside was there was no bar on the premises, but we were allowed to bring our own drinks in for the Saturday evening seisiún and céilí (and a couple of us went out and bought enough beer, cider, wine, and soft drinks to accommodate everyone), so no harm!

There were several reasonably priced motels within a five- to 10-minute drive of the venue (not walking distance, as in San Francisco, but then L.A. really is a driver's town). I stayed in this little place, and was very pleased with it:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserRevi ... ornia.html

There were three levels of classes available: Level 1 for absolute beginners, Level 2 for intermediate-level learners, and level 3 for fluent or near-fluent speakers. As usual, Level 2 had the widest breadth of learners, from people just venturing out of Level 1 to people who are pretty near ready for Level 3. As always, people were free to move up and down and try different levels, if they felt they were being under-challenged or over-faced. That's often the hardest level to accommodate, as there usually aren't quite enough people to justify dividing the group into lower- and upper-intermediate, but folks seemed happy with the ability to try different levels, so it all seemed to work out.

Meals were included in the price (a light dinner Friday night, light breakfast-y stuff on Saturday and Sunday morning, fully catered meals for Saturday and Sunday lunch and Saturday dinner, and fruit and cookies to nibble on during tea breaks).

I was in Level 3, and it's always good fun in the upper levels! The goal, of course, is to give people opportunities to speak, so we had everything from debates to games of Fiche Ceist. During the breaks, a couple of us had fun teaching simple children's songs to some of the beginners.

One thing that was different about this DSG was that the late afternoons (an hour or so before dinner) were devoted to workshops (on offer were céilí dancing, sean-nós dancing, traditional singing, pop songs in Irish, harp playing, and storytelling...you had time to do two workshops on Saturday and one on Sunday). Reminded me a bit of the evening activities at Oideas Gael. Because these activities are for mixed levels, the teachers had to alternate between English and Irish, but it all worked out (good learning opportunity for the beginners and good practice opportunity for the advanced learners, so it's all win-win).

Friday night we were all tired from traveling, but we still managed to put together a bit of a session. Saturday night we were joined by other musicians affiliated with the L.A. Celtic Arts Center, and had a great old time singing and dancing!

The three of us in our group (I drove down with a friend and his nine-year-old son, who has been raised through Irish) stayed over into Monday, as I (the driver) was way too tired to put in a five-hour drive after a long (but fun!) day of learning. We had dinner at a Thai place, since our motels were on the border of Thai Town (English was definitely the minority language there! Most of the customers were speaking Thai, and then there was us speaking Irish!)...I adore Thai food, so that was a treat! The next morning we took the time to explore Griffith Park a bit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffith_P ... California), as it was just a short hop from our motels.

I have to say that the only downside of this wonderful weekend was hearing what the teachers and some of the advanced students had to say about the forums (given that, as far as I know, there are only two that cater at all to beginners, and these things were being said to beginners, I can only conclude that ILF was included in this). I heard over and over throughout the weekend "Avoid the forums. They're poisonous. They'll turn you off Irish."

This really saddens me, because, back when IGTF was still active, I often said that it was a good thing it was there when I first started with the language, because if my only contact with other Irish speakers had been Daltaí.com, I'd have never stuck with it. I'd like to say that ILF is different from Daltaí in this respect, but in all honesty, I can't say that. I really didn't feel that I could speak up and say "Hey...ILF isn't like that! Come to us, and we'll give you the kind of community and support you need." To be honest, I don't see a lot of difference between ILF and Daltaí at all.

I'd like to have a conversation about this on another thread, because I think it's important. I have some ideas as to how we can make this forum more welcoming, and I'd like to talk about it. I'll start another thread here later this evening or tomorrow. But for now I do think it's important to realize that we are NOT making a favorable impression among Irish language teachers, at least here in California.

Here are some pictures from the weekend:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 649b00e7d8

Redwolf

Thanks for the update, Red. I'm going to plan on going next year. I'd have gone this year, but had just gotten back from a long vacation.

I'm sad to hear about the impression of this forum which was apparently given. I hope those on here who have been so adamant in criticizing or disparaging other Irish speakers (especially those they categorize as "Urban Irish" speakers) will take that to heart and finally put an end to their diatribes and derogatory comments. They're certainly entitled to have their opinions about "correct" Irish, but I wish they would agree to just stop preaching their dogmas here and reserve them for discussion elsewhere, in the interest of the forum.

Some of the self-defined "experts"" on here should take Bríd as a good example (sorry to put you on the spot, a Bhríd). She's a native speaker, but never criticizes the attempts of others or disparages their pronunciation. She provides only helpful and friendly comments, without preaching, and is very open to the many people in Ireland (and elsewhere) outside the Gaeltachtaí who are trying to improve their Irish.

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I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.

If you want to go next year, hit me up! I love to drive, and I usually have a seat available. I definitely plan to go, unless something untoward happens.

You'd have known several of the people there. Galt and I drove down with his son Conall. Imelda White taught the second level. Arge Ó Niall was in our class, and, of course, Ramona Reeves, who organized things, has been an attendee in San Francisco.

Yeah...that's exactly what people were talking about, sadly. I know we're all passionate about this language, but we do really need to stop and think about how what we say (and the way in which we say it) impacts people who are just starting out. I have a few ideas for things that may help, which I'll suggest in the other thread. I don't want to suggest that people shouldn't express their opinions, but perhaps there are ways in which we could do that that wouldn't come across...well, in the ways in which they're apparently coming across.

Often it's just a communication thing. The thing that put me off Daltaí forever was someone (well, a couple of someones) taking me to task for using the word "variation" when referring to a dialect form a newcomer asked about. Seemed like a neutral term to me, but apparently several people felt the use of that word meant I was (in their words) a "caighdeán lackey"!

Redwolf

Sorry you were put off Daltaí forever but I believe your critics were people posting their own opinions and not Daltaei members,..Just as on this site, people freely post their own opinions, Some years back, there were several linguists who sneered at everyone who did not adhere to their ideas about the language and spent most of their time arguing with people In their minds, unless rigid protocols were followed it would be impossible for most people to learn Irish .One of them has vanished and another has come down from his high horse and become more helpful. Not only did they sneer at beginners, they had rigid ideas about who was or wasn't a"native speaker" or had the proper dialect..Most of these critics were neither Irish nor American but aging "students" whose governments would award grants so they coud continue their studies. The idea of the average person with a full-time job and family who studied just because was incomprehensible to them. Dalta´doesn't censor most postings and the administration does not post on matter like these. Bríd is a gem and an great asset

The problem, though, beagle, is Daltaí has always been like that. I first posted there shortly after I first started with Irish, close to 10 years ago, but I quickly gave it up as a bad job, after seeing all the sniping and in-fighting. And I have to say that, when I first started going to Irish immersion weekends, the general opinion of the site was the same.

At that time, I was very happy to be able to refer people to IGTF, which had a very different dynamic entirely.

The second time, when the incident I mentioned happened, was shortly after I came back from my first visit to Ireland in 2008. I had hoped that things might have changed, but sadly, they hadn't. I've ventured back there from time to time, but I haven't seen anything that would change my opinion of the site. There's nothing there that would encourage me to keep up with Irish. Fortunately for me, I'm at the point now where I have enough friends, both locally and in Ireland, who are truly supportive of Irish learners that the forums aren't essential, but the reality is that I got lucky. I hit IGTF at just the right time, and that's where I met, or was directed to, the people who have supported me in my learning.

The really sad thing is that ILF now has the same reputation. There is nothing that distinguishes it from what I encountered at Daltaí. I could only agree with the people at the DSG who said "Stay off the forums. They're poisonous." I could never recommend to a newby that he or she come here. It's just Daltaí all over again. I have to say, in all honesty, that there is not currently a discussion forum that I would recommend to a new learner, this one included. And apparently I'm not alone.

Redwolf

I have used the term Urban Irish myself at times. All it means, to me anyhow, is non-traditional pronunciation and possible syntax differences sometimes too.

Some people are happy to speak it and don’t strive to correct their pronunciation, or are not aware of the correct pronunciation. It is inevitable for a lot of learners as it is very hard to be fluent in any new language you learn as an adult. I know that myself. I try to learn Welsh, I know I will never be fluent or get the exact correct sound of CH RH LL etc- I have my limitations. But it is not impossible for others to achieve that, nor is it impossible for learners of Irish to achieve native level fluency. Some only want to learn the basics, or even just the cúpla focal, and that's ok too. Maybe we could call it something else, like non-fluent Irish. Anyway we don’t need to keep fighting about it.

We had quite a lot of heated discussions on IGTF, more than what is allowed here. This subject came up too at a fairly regular basis. Maybe because we had a more diverse forum it got lost among the other topics.

This forum is for everybody, regardless of your level of Irish. Those that want to discuss linguistics, language history, songs and poetry, for people who are basic learners with grammar questions or translations, for people who have no interest at all in learning Irish but want a tattoo translation etc.

Tá fáilte roimh chuile dhuine !

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.
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Redwolf, if it were not for the "Urban Irish" and "Dialect war" threads let's say, would you feel you could recommend the forum? I felt that Daltaí had far too much conversations about Irish in a social sense rather than conversations about Irish in the sense of learning it, or even better, conversations in Irish. I think the "Urban Irish" threads are an example of these social threads.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

There are a few other threads that I can think of that make me reluctant to recommend this forum.

I think one reason we should be more careful here is that we have fewer people, so snarky stuff really stands out. We also seem to discourage the friendly, if often unrelated to Irish, banter that made IGTF (generally) a fun place to hang out. I'm not sure how much of the latter we can regain, as most of those of us who enjoyed it have migrated to Facebook or other such sites, but it might help if more people participated in the games, or made a friendly comment on some of the interesting threads that Saoirse posts. To be honest, sometimes it's like pulling teeth just to get people to respond to a translation request!

Bear in mind that I'm just the messenger here. I was instrumental in helping to start this forum, and I'd like to see it succeed, and be the kind of fun, supportive, and interesting place that I found IGTF to be back in the day. It saddened me, frankly, to find myself nodding in agreement when beginners were advised to "stay away from the forums."

I do want to start that other thread...I'll try to get to that this morning (though I have a small medical procedure to go through at 10, and I have to walk the dog and get some other stuff done before I leave, so I'm not sure I'll be able to do it before this afternoon). I do think it's something we should discuss, and I'm afraid the discussion will be lost if we keep it in this thread.

Redwolf

Well, forums or not, I am glad that your immersion weekend went so well for you. I am just back from Dalta†'s weekend and it was fab.. I do hope that people don't get the idea from all the messages on the Forum that the weekends are formal and rigid,, The classes are great and the social life great, the accomadatiions are clean, comfortable and inexpensive, a fact the younger students appreciate, There were 100 of us this time , a lot of them college kids and a lot of fine musicians

That's good to hear. Might be nice to have a review of those as well...what goes on, what's the format, where do people stay, etc. I know they're different from the ones we have out here, for the most part.

Redwolf