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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jan 2014 12:41 pm 
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I was googling around on an unrelated topic and landed on a section from the Nancy Stenson book "Intermediate Irish" dealing with the superlative form of the adjective - though my question's about her use of the copula.

There's the usual kind of stuff:
-Is mise an duine is sine
-Is é Pádraig an feirmeoir is saibhre
-Is é an scian seo an scian is géire
etc.

and these two sentences, which seem wrong to me:
-Is glioma an bia is blasta
-Is sneachta úr an rud is báine


I think they should be:
-Is é an bia is blasta (ná) glioma
-Is é an rud is báine (ná) sneachta úr
(the ná not being necessary).

(Of course, we could put a pronoun and the article before 'glioma' and 'sneachta úr' in the Stenson examples to make them definite, but that would alter the meaning slightly).

So, have I got it wrong? Or has Nancy?


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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jan 2014 7:35 pm 
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Yeah, I see what you mean. I'm afraid I don't know if it's theoretically correct or not, but it seems odd to me too. I'd prefer your alternative, or if for the sake of emphasis you want to front the noun, then just use the pronoun and the article.

Slán,

Domhnall

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jan 2014 8:01 pm 
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For me the "ná" style copula is used with definite predicate or a predicate that is a clause.

In non-jargon:

1. Definite: B'é an duine a bheadh pósta aici ná an Seán Ceatach céanna.

2. Clause: Is é rud a dhein sé ar dtúis ná teacht abhaile.

So to me, you'd have to say:

Is é an bia is blasta ná an gliomach.

However the copula really depends on the dialect, so this might not true everywhere.

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jan 2014 8:14 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
So to me it you'd have to say:

Is é an bia is blasta ná an gliomach.

However the copula really depends on the dialect, so this might not true everywhere.


I see what you mean. In which case 'is é an gliomach an bia is blasta' would be ok too?

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PostPosted: Thu 30 Jan 2014 8:21 pm 
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AnBraonach wrote:
I see what you mean. In which case 'is é an gliomach an bia is blasta' would be ok too?

Yeah, definitely.

"Is é an gliomach an bia is blasta" is the normal version.

"Is é an bia is blasta ná an gliomach" is really the same sentence, but with an gliomach shoved ahead for a bit more emphasis.

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PostPosted: Fri 31 Jan 2014 5:37 am 
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And if you rearrange any further the superlative is lost but the adjective is emphasised:

Is blasta an bia é an gliomach. "Lobsters are good eating!" literally "It is _tasty_ food the lobster."

Is báine an rud sneachta úr. "Fresh snow is very white." literally "Fresh snow is a _white_ thing."

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PostPosted: Fri 31 Jan 2014 10:06 am 
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Breandán wrote:
And if you rearrange any further the superlative is lost but the adjective is emphasised:

Is blasta an bia é an gliomach. "Lobsters are good eating!" literally "It is _tasty_ food the lobster."

Is báine an rud sneachta úr. "Fresh snow is very white." literally "Fresh snow is a _white_ thing."


Hmm - am confused suddenly. Is the superlative or comparative really lost in the second example? I don't know why but something seems odd about it. I would have said:

Is bán an rud é an sneachta úr
(I added the article because it just seems strange to me without it - I'm not so good at explaining grammar, I'm afraid)

or

Is báine an sneachta úr ná a dhath ar bith eile

Slán,

Domhanll

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PostPosted: Fri 31 Jan 2014 11:24 am 
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AnBraonach wrote:
Breandán wrote:
And if you rearrange any further the superlative is lost but the adjective is emphasised:

Is blasta an bia é an gliomach. "Lobsters are good eating!" literally "It is _tasty_ food the lobster."

Is báine an rud sneachta úr. "Fresh snow is very white." literally "Fresh snow is a _white_ thing."


Hmm - am confused suddenly. Is the superlative or comparative really lost in the second example? I don't know why but something seems odd about it. I would have said:

Is bán an rud é an sneachta úr
(I added the article because it just seems strange to me without it - I'm not so good at explaining grammar, I'm afraid)

or

Is báine an sneachta úr ná a dhath ar bith eile

Slán,

Domhanll

Yeah, the first of my examples worked the way I said but the second didn't. It should have been:

Is bán an rud sneachta úr. "Fresh snow is very white." literally "Fresh snow is a _white_ thing."[/quote]

I think the second of yours is comparative rather than superlative:

Is báine sneachta úr ná rud ar bith eile. "Fresh snow is whiter than anything else"

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My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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