I fully agree with you but I warn you I got insulted almost everytime I expressed that opinion... And I lost hours trying to explain it to people who didn't want to listen anyway.
There are truths that most Irish people, and maybe most non-native Irish speakers, don't want to hear. (same thing in Brittany too)

So I won't take part in this discussion again... Well at least you know at least one other person on this forum agrees with you

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Point taken... If I ever do figure out what it means in the first place then the meaning may be made into something le dul dúchasach... I expect it has already been done, but outside of the boundaries you have given. As a matter of interest I will check it out.

I wonder how many native English speakers have ever used these words anywhere other than in books originally and then, having grasped the new ideas, given them utterance learned and then practical application?
We must allow words for these new things to become part of the language - so we can utter these ideas - or surely it will die altogether.

'Urban Irish' now that's a different thing entirely - the jury is out on that one!!

Of course, a little more resources to the Gaeltacht and to the promotion of the language would certainly not go amiss at all.

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Bí cinnte de go nglacfaidh triúr le gach aistriúchán a thabharfar.
Be sure to get three in agreement with a translation given.

Make that "two people" who agree with you, patrickjwalsh! Lughaidh has made this point eloquently in the past, as you have done in this thread.

Patrick if there is a considerable divergence between natively spoken Irish and that being spoken by many people outside the Gaeltacht would it not make sense to address what is causing this. i.e. the Standard of Irish being propagated ?

These people want to learn Irish, they will continue to do so and many will continue to look towards the official standard as this is what they are being told is the correct form of the language.

If they are going to continue regardless of peoples misgivings perhaps its better to try and breach the divide and show the richness of native spoken Irish and promote that as a standard to aim for , rather than rail against the very fact they are learning improperly.

Telling people they shouldn't be doing something rarely works, usually has the opposite effect in my experience

They just end up getting defensive that there efforts are disparaged, disconnect from native spoken Irish as they see it as the home of unforgiven purists and continue along learning and propagating the type of Irish you don't like.

Such as here. http://wordotter.wordpress.com/2013/09/ ... le-people/

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

Dáithí, you are saying exactly what I'm saying - the standard should be based on real Irish and people should learn that.

We most certainly do agree on what should be the standard. I feel its logical for any language that the native spoken version should be the standard.

What I'm trying to get across is the idea that just because there is a large body of people with imperfect Irish , they should not be discouraged from using it , rather they should be encouraged to slowly move towards the native spoken form. I include my self in this body of people. My Irish is very much a school version, learned from a teacher who themselves were a poor second language speaker.

However the more I came across native spoken Irish I recognised it contained a richness of sound and expression which I was unknowingly missing out on.

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Bíonn rudaí maithe mall

Spot on, a Bhraonaigh. Just because native speakers have never spoken about particle physics doesn't mean it isn't possible to ever do so in a native way.

Although I agree with most people commenting here that standard Irish should be native-based and teachers should be encouraged to teach it and discouraged from _teaching_ Urban Irish, I also think it is important for everybody to be encouraged to _speak_ and _use_ whatever Irish they have got, Urban or otherwise.

As a parent speaking a foreign language (Japanese) to my kids, I can tell you that children are NOT destined to be locked in to the level of language of their parents. My kids know my near-native Japanese is "not quite right" and have processed it with all the other samples of native and non-native speakers, in dialect and standard Japanese, that they have ever been exposed to.

They've also had no trouble doing the same with English. Even though their mother is not a native speaker of that language, they are learning to speak flawless English and taking lots of different foreign accents in their stride.

In fact, they can switch from flawless English or Japanese to mimicking (or mocking) those foreign accents in either language, even for words and utterances they have never heard before. (I am sure that Gaeltacht kids have no trouble switching between their school accent and their parents' accent either.)

In contrast, I also know of a Japanese immigrant couple (like many immigrant parents) whose children speak fluent English to each other to the extent that their Japanese is heavily accented, even though BOTH of their parents are native Japanese speakers. So having two native speaking parents is no guarantee of a child attaining native fluency either.

Like all things in life, children can learn to distinguish reliable sources from unreliable ones, i.e., good speakers from not-so-good speakers, especially with proper guidance. This same principle applies to all learners.

It is important to encourage and promote the teaching and speaking of native Irish as much as possible, but I believe that getting too zealous about attacking Urban Irish just marginalises your position and loses your audience. If you overstate your case, then you really shouldn't be surprised when there is a backlash. Sometimes the "facts" that we know may be true in themselves and still only be a subset of the total "reality".

This site is here to encourage people to learn and to use Irish. It is not solely for native Irish, even though there is absolutely no question that Gaeltacht Irish is the best Irish.

People should be encouraged to USE whatever Irish they've got. We should point people to better Irish by positive example and thoughtful instruction, and we do need to be critical of less-than-adequate teaching resources, but we can't guide people to better Irish if we turn them off learning Irish altogether. Let's at least try not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Did someone say 'loanwords'?

"Personation of older people was almost invariably affectionate, if not respectful, in tone. Often it highlighted anti-quated speaking styles, especially the difficulties ‘‘the old people’’ (an seandream) had with English. Sometimes it was expanded into a full anecdote. For example, a (named, particular) Rath Cairn man goes to Athboy (a nearby English-speaking town) and wants to buy some ballach (a type of fish), and asks the shopkeeper for ‘‘four bollockses’’. icopter Mairtín Mac Donncha told me many stories like this, sometimes adding that it was a good thing to hear bad English spoken in Ireland!"

-The nation, the state, and the neighbors:personation in Irish-language discourse
Steve Coleman
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 7247,d.ZGU

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__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

Here we go again..... Yawn!

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True.

But encouraging them doesn't mean putting up with people whose Irish is just Irish words crowbarred into English idioms who'll proudly declare that their errors are "their dialect".

And it certainly doesn't mean encouraging people who can't pronounce CH to take roles in Ros na Rún!

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A language belongs to its native speakers, and when you speak it, you are a guest in their homes.
If you are not a good guest, you have no right to complain about receiving poor hospitality.