Breandán you're probably right that ceartúchán is both an individual correction and the general act of correction (if I understood you to say that).

I've never seen any of the -úchán words in a plural in traditional Irish. For example: could you say "roim cheartúchánaibh"? So I'm thinking that the usage with a plural may have become more common over the past 100 years because it parallels English.

Ceartú - I've found this in contexts like éagóir a cheartú - not in the context of correcting a document. Clearly, I'm focused on the more traditional end of the spectrum - and native speakers nowadays won't necessarily have a 100% traditional style of language (as is the case in all languages, as languages evolve) - but I may just have not come across the specific context of correcting a document and for that reason haven't seen it. But I think there is a comment to make on the use of words like ceartú - something I mentioned in the roghnaigh thread that "rogha a dhéanamh" is better than "roghnú", because Irish has a preference for nouns.

So I feel - but it is only the feeling of an irrelevant non-native - that ceartúchán a dheánamh ar (alt) makes more sense that (alt) a cheartú. Or at least in terms of the older idiom? Or possibly it is this: that both types of sentence existed and are right and natural, but nowadays only the second one will be chosen, as it is a direction translation of the English.

I am not disagreeing with you. Everything you said made sense - I just wanted to append comments.

I have to say that we never discussed control towers, car rental returns, or passenger terminals in Irish or in any other language until I began to read, but I will attempt to put what would make sense to me in Irish for these terms:

Control Tower = Túr rialaithe aerthráchta

Car Rental Returns = Aischuir na gcarranna ar cíos
Car Rental Returns Book = Leabhar aischur na gcarranna ar cíos

NOTE: If by 'Car Rental Returns' is meant the place where the rental cars are returned, then:
Carranna ar cíos ar ais

Passenger Terminal = Críochfort paisinéirí

...oddly enough a word I did hear was 'pasantóirí' but 'paisinéirí' is the one I read and is the one to use...

Please wait until there are three agreements on whatever translation is finally chosen.

_________________
Bí cinnte de go nglacfaidh triúr le gach aistriúchán a thabharfar.
Be sure to get three in agreement with a translation given.

If over-translation is surely a poison if ever there was one, would it not be safer for the language to just Gaelicise what you can:

Passenger terminal --> An Terminil (paisnéirí)
Control tower --> An Túr (rialúcháin), or as the job of the tower is not to 'control' but rather to co-ordinate action, then An Túr Comhardú might be nicer
Rentals returns -I don't know as English has an enormous suite of countable and uncountable and semi-countables categories but maybe 'Aischuir rent-a-charr', lol

And leave the rest to God (and assimilation!)

_________________
__̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.___

...thar am logáil amach tá mé a cheapadh!!... and leave the rest to God and assimilation...
or why not be helpful and suggest a translation that makes sense yourself?

_________________
Bí cinnte de go nglacfaidh triúr le gach aistriúchán a thabharfar.
Be sure to get three in agreement with a translation given.

Well, that sentence suggests that there always **must** be a good Irish version of every phrase in the English language - regardless of whether the words are ever used or not.

A lot of modern terminology is made up purely for the translation industry - and made up by non-native speakers sitting in Dublin. This was pointed out by Feargal Ó Béarra, native speaker of Connemara Irish and academic at NUI Galway, when he complained about "dental hygienist" being sláinteolaí déadach according to the vaunted Coiste Téarmaíochta - when that means, in native Irish, "hygienist with big teeth". They eventually changed the recommended term to sláinteolaí fiacla following Ó Béarra's intervention. And that is just one of many thousands of examples of made-up terms.

On focal.ie you can look up the Irish for AIDS - but I wonder if it has **ever** been used **even once** by **any** native speaker. Siondróm easpa imdhíonachta faighte is what they recommend - but this phrase doesn't exist in Irish...

There are things that just do not correspond to the reality of life in the Gaeltacht. Are there any passenger terminals in the Gaeltacht?

It is no valid objection to say that all languages have made-up terminology - English terms are also invented by "experts" - because in most languages the ones making the terms up are native speakers - and the terms are in use in the native-speaking community.

Terms that are not made up by native speakers and are not in use in the native-speaking community are just not part of the language. I think Bríd says somewhere on this site that microwave is just microwave in the Gaeltacht. Those who say it is oigheann micreathonnach or some such rubáiste - are just wrong. There's no such word. The terms made up have to be ratified by real usage in the Gaeltacht to become valid. Many thousands of junk words are given on the focal.ie website - a website that ought to be closed down by the government.

The key thing is native usage. *If* native speakers says críochfort - a word that appears to be incorrectly formed according to the rules of the Irish language (that method of forming compounds is not productive in the modern language) - then it is a correct word. *If* they say "terminal" - in English - then that is the word - even if it has to be italicised as an obvious loanword.

I do not believe críochfort means anything in Irish - but I am open to persuasion if it can be shown that Gaeltacht natives do use the word, as I don't have independent evidence either way. I suppose the correct approach is to say "which Gaeltacht village is críochfort heard in?"

Braoin said that he didn't hear this word - but came across it in writing - but nearly all writing in Irish is by non-native speakers, using the Caighdeán Oifigiúil, and adopting words out of the dictionary invented by the Coiste Téarmaíochta - and I would guess that many native speakers, if they couldn't find a native word for a concept, would also look up focal.ie and such sources and faithfully transcribe whatever they found there. So it is no surprise that, in writing, the invented terms are found. What was interesting was that Braoin said he hadn't heard the word in Gaeltacht speech...

And if the word is not heard in Gaeltacht speech... it is not a word. Neamhfhocal is ea é.

Passenger terminal could be said as 'passenger terminal' in the middle of an Irish sentence. I believe it is possible to say 'restaurant' in the middle of an English sentence, so the use of loanwords should not be shocking in any language.

Passenger: paisinéir (Munster), paisinéara (Connacht), pasantóir (Ulster), according to Mc Cionnaith.

Control tower = control tower (unless anyone can show that control towers are a) found in the Connemara, and b) called túr rial-anything).

I can think of one modern term thats actually accepted in the Gaeltacht is ''ríomhaire''. It wouldn't be unusual as such to use it with a native speaker. Its used by a lot of native speakers.

There would be a "passenger terminal" of sorts on Inis Mór, would there not? I wonder what the locals call it in Irish? Teach an Aeradróim? an Fheithealann?

Perhaps the "control tower" is just an teach a bhfuil an duine leis na déshúiligh ann?

By the way, is neamhfhocal a real word? Focal nach focal would seem more natural to me.

I agree that there are a lot of unnatural compunds on focal.ie, but I think the new terms are definitely necessary. Getting rid of Coiste Téarmaíochta isn't the solution. Getting more (well preferably _only_) native speakers to vet the entries would be much better. That is the real solution.

We don't want to drag Irish back into the nineteenth century, we want to help native Irish make it intact and augmented into the twenty-first century and beyond.

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

They can certainly try - and where the words that are devised are actually taken up by the native speakers - like ríomhaire - then the real language has been extended and thereby enriched.

I see Welsh speakers are now being told it's OK to use some English words in their Welsh - see http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013 ... port-usage

they don't need to be told it to use loanwords
Anyway loanwords never harmed any language -- look at English, 2/3 of its words are French and Latin... it hasn't make the language less expressive and hasn't exactly made it die

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Umm .. actually the introduction of French changed Anglo-Saxon grammar irrevocably, i.e., loss of gender of nouns due to convergence of two incompatible systems.

Loanwords from English would have to be treated like native words in order to avoid adversely affecting Irish grammar, e.g., ar a bhaghsacal.

_________________
Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).