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PostPosted: Fri 29 Nov 2013 7:03 am 
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franc 91 wrote:
By the way when you say
Óladh sé
Ólaimís
Ólaidís
for me that would be the equivalent of the subjunctive in French
que tu boives
que nous buvions
que vous buviez


Yes - apart from the fact that the persons are not aligned above:

óladh sé = qu'il boive
ólaimís: que nous buvions (=Buvons!)
ólaidís = qu'ils boivent

The interesting thing is that Irish has a first-person singular imperative, although some grammar books omit it. An example found in literature is: ná cloisim a thuilleadh uait. This is 1st-psn imperative, where the subjunctive would have been: nár chloisim a thuilleadh uait. The difference between these two forms is minimal or non-existent. How much of a difference is there in French between que nous buvions and buvons!?


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PostPosted: Fri 29 Nov 2013 6:26 pm 
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Location: 91 - France
Yes you're right about getting the order wrong - we would use the subjunctive when it follows an expression that requires it, for example il faut qu'il boive (because it's vital that he does) otherwise you'd say - allez, bois un coup or si on allait boire un coup (boit un coup was one of the first things my eldest son said!) ;)


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2013 10:43 pm 
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Direct (commands and warnings): glan & glanaigí; lig dom imeacht!

Strong friendly command: let's be at our drink, hale fellows! bí ag ól, a fhearaibh!

Quasi: We'll have a drink! Ólfaidh muid!

Hortative/entreaty: ólaimís etc -in the first and third persons, might sound very old fashioned, no?

Jussive: I should clean the kitchen, glanaim an chistin; he should do his homework, déanfadh sé a obair bhaile

Offer: Let me do that: lig dom é sin a dhéanamh



Resolute Intent: he will clean up!, déanfaidh sé an jab

Assertion: glanfaidh mé

Prediction: They will win, buafaidh siad

Habitual fact: He drives a red car, tiomáineann sé carr dearg

Personal tendency: He would take a drink, thógfadh sé braon dí

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2013 11:38 pm 
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Would I be right this is how it would work?:

Primary commands: glan na soithí; glanaigí na plataí; lig doibh imeacht!
Strong friendly command: bí ag ól!
[Speaking to another person or group directly -an exclusive command]

Quasi: We'll have a drink! Ólfaidh muid!
[Speaking to the group -an inclusive command]


Self suggest/remark: glanaim (I should clean the house), glantar an plás
Jussive: glanadh sé (he should clean); glanaidís (they should clean)
Hortative/entreaty/offer: glanaimís; lig duinn é a dhéanamh


Suggestion: ghlanfá (you could clean)

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PostPosted: Mon 02 Dec 2013 10:22 pm 
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franc 91 wrote:
By the way when you say
Óladh sé
Ólaimís
Ólaidís
for me that would be the equivalent of the subjunctive in French
que tu boives
que nous buvions
que vous buviez

Yes. The point here as I understand it is that you have to use ólaimis in Irish as a translation of Buvons!, as well as a translation of "que nous buvions".

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Dec 2013 11:11 am 
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NiallBeag wrote:
franc 91 wrote:
By the way when you say
Óladh sé
Ólaimís
Ólaidís
for me that would be the equivalent of the subjunctive in French
que tu boives
que nous buvions
que vous buviez

Yes. The point here as I understand it is that you have to use ólaimis in Irish as a translation of Buvons!, as well as a translation of "que nous buvions".


I think I may have sown confusion by stating that buvons and que nous buvions are both equivalents of ólaimís(t).

This was because, in French, the 3rd-psn singular imperative is formed using the subjunctive - qu'il fasse.

But Irish has a full range of imperatives and present subjunctives. So technically speaking, buvons = ólaimís, whereas que nous buvions is: go n-ólaimíd. It seems the French imperative is only 1st person plural, 2nd person singular and 2nd person plural - in which cases there is a difference between the imperative and the subjunctive. For the other persons there isn't.

So you have:

Imperative:
ólaim
ól
óladh sé
ólaimís(t)
ólaidh (and ólaigí in some dialects)
ólaidís
ólt(h)ar

Present subjunctive:
go n-ólaim
go n-ólair
go n-ólaidh sé
go n-ólaimíd
go n-ólaidh sibh
go n-ólaid siad
go n-ólt(h)ar

The difference is slight.

Don't drink (ne buvez pas): ná hólaidh
May you not drink (que vous ne buviez pas): nár ólaidh sibh

I must admit real examples of some of these are somewhat lacking. Take for example the verb bheith:

Imperative:
*bím

bíodh sé
bímís
bídh
bídís
bít(e)ar

Present subjunctive:
*go rabhad
go rabhair
go raibh sé
*go rabhaimíd
go raibh sibh
*go rabhaid siad
go rabhthar

The asterisked forms are very hard indeed to find.


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PostPosted: Tue 03 Dec 2013 11:52 pm 
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What is the function of the subjunctive here exactly? Without respect to function it gets confusing for me

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PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 12:00 am 
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Jay Bee wrote:
What is the function of the subjunctive here exactly? Without respect to function it gets confusing for me


To express a wish (optative use) - as in go raibh maith agat.

[This is not quite the same as other uses of the subjunctive, eg after "chun go", and I believe that in the specific case of the verb bheith, the subjunctive is only use optatively (ná rabhthar míshásta), whereas other subjunctive uses are just like the future: fan go mbeidh mé ansan - as far as I know you can't say fan go rabhad ansan - reflecting a wider tendency for the future to replace the present subjunctive, reinforced by the fact that they are often pronounced the same (go n-éistidh sé and go n-éistfidh sé are identical in speech).]


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PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 12:07 am 
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At the risk of losing precision, one could replace the subjunctive with the future and the past habitual with the conditonal

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PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 12:12 am 
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Jay Bee wrote:
At the risk of losing precision, one could replace the subjunctive with the future and the past habitual with the conditonal


That has been more or less done in native speech.


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