Grrr...frustration!

Redwolf · **Posted:** Fri 22 Nov 2013 5:46 pm

WeeFalorieMan wrote:

Redwolf wrote:

I'd go one step further and recommend reading aloud, at least a little each day.

That's the good thing about Coiglímís an Tine – It comes with CD's of the entire book being read by a fluent native speaker.

That's nice for listening practice, or for someone who is still trying to sort out the sounds of the language, but what I'm suggesting Daithí do is "cold reading"...i.e., just pick up the book and start reading aloud, without listening beforehand. I figure that, by the time one is at this stage, one knows how things are pronounced in whatever dialect one is learning...what's needed is practice with unrehearsed speaking. "Cold reading" can help bridge that gap.

Redwolf

patrickjwalsh · **Joined:** Wed 24 Jul 2013 2:31 am **Posts:** 329

Yes, I agree with Redwolf. Listening to CDs can improve your listening comprehension and you can expose yourself thereby to the sounds you are trying to master, but if you don't have anyone to practise with, you can only generate spoken Irish yourself by talking to yourself (out loud) or by reading! Some passages lending themselves more naturally to recitation.

WeeFalorieMan · **Posted:** Fri 22 Nov 2013 8:05 pm

Redwolf wrote:

I figure that, by the time one is at this stage, one knows how things are pronounced in whatever dialect one is learning...

I'm sure you're right. Daithí probably doesn't need much help with pronunciation at this point.

Breandán · **Posted:** Sat 23 Nov 2013 6:26 am

Another good way to do this is to learn (and keep singing) songs. :prof:

Redwolf · **Posted:** Sat 23 Nov 2013 7:05 am

Breandán wrote:

Another good way to do this is to learn (and keep singing) songs. :prof:

Yep...though again not quite as good as cold reading, as songs quickly become memorized.

Redwolf

patrickjwalsh · **Joined:** Wed 24 Jul 2013 2:31 am **Posts:** 329

Funnily enough, Redwolf, many native speakers find it hard to read Irish out loud - as they don't often read the language. Yet I often practise this cold reading at home - and, albeit with many pronunciation mistakes, especially relating to broad and slender - I can generally read Irish out quite fluently. I don't mean I'm "fluent" in the language; I mean I read it out without having to pause and without getting the words wrong. It flows.

Coiglímís - a useful word - I didn't know it before, but I just looked it up and now have another arrow in my quiver.

Dáithí Mac Giolla. · **Joined:** Sat 01 Jun 2013 8:46 pm **Posts:** 466

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Daithí, I don't know how much you do already, but I would really recommend reading and listening over grammar study and
vocab memorisation.

I know you are already listening to RnaG, e.t.c. However, my general observation is that if people study grammar abstractly
and learn vocab lists detached from context the retention rate of both is quite poor. This is essentially why we don't learn languages
well in Ireland. In schools we simply get the told:
"The Módh Coinníollach operates like this....., here is twenty words for random vegtables learn them off".

This sort of learning is useless, similar to how Latin used to be taught. On the non-listening side I would really recommend reading,
where you learn vocab and grammar in context. I can give you links to studies where double blind studies were done on language
learners who didn't read and those who did, the second group typically performs noticeably better.

Since you're learning Munster Irish, I'd recommend "Coiglimís an tine" by Bab Feiritear. Read through that and make sure you understand everything.
PM me with any questions you have.

I completely get what your saying about learning grammar rules detached from context. recently ive been trying to find examples of grammar rules in phrases i know so I can try and work out how to apply them.

The reading sounds like a good idea, I have Ó Bhéal an Bhab with CD,would that be harder or easier than Coiglimís an tine ?
Im sure I can get Coiglimís an tine in the Library.

I would be interested in seeing those study links too

not that i dont believe you, just find that sort of thing interesting .
Thanks for the offer of help.

My pronunciation is much improved , but some of the sounds i find tricky, such as nglanaim , are a bit hit and miss yet. so listening and repeating does help.

what is Coiglímís, i cant find it in either of my dictionary's

Bríd Mhór · **Joined:** Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm **Posts:** 2985

Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:

what is Coiglímís, i cant find it in either of my dictionary's

Look up "coigil".

You'd rake up the ash so the the embers would stay lit and saved for the morning. Handy to light the fire again in those days before firelighters.

Dáithí Mac Giolla. · **Joined:** Sat 01 Jun 2013 8:46 pm **Posts:** 466

wow im sure ive heard someone (possibly my granny) say something similar in English about saving the fire.

Redwolf · **Posted:** Sat 23 Nov 2013 4:17 pm

Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Daithí, I don't know how much you do already, but I would really recommend reading and listening over grammar study and
vocab memorisation.

I know you are already listening to RnaG, e.t.c. However, my general observation is that if people study grammar abstractly
and learn vocab lists detached from context the retention rate of both is quite poor. This is essentially why we don't learn languages
well in Ireland. In schools we simply get the told:
"The Módh Coinníollach operates like this....., here is twenty words for random vegtables learn them off".

This sort of learning is useless, similar to how Latin used to be taught. On the non-listening side I would really recommend reading,
where you learn vocab and grammar in context. I can give you links to studies where double blind studies were done on language
learners who didn't read and those who did, the second group typically performs noticeably better.

Since you're learning Munster Irish, I'd recommend "Coiglimís an tine" by Bab Feiritear. Read through that and make sure you understand everything.
PM me with any questions you have.

I completely get what your saying about learning grammar rules detached from context. recently ive been trying to find examples of grammar rules in phrases i know so I can try and work out how to apply them.

The reading sounds like a good idea, I have Ó Bhéal an Bhab with CD,would that be harder or easier than Coiglimís an tine ?
Im sure I can get Coiglimís an tine in the Library.

I would be interested in seeing those study links too

not that i dont believe you, just find that sort of thing interesting .
Thanks for the offer of help.

My pronunciation is much improved , but some of the sounds i find tricky, such as nglanaim , are a bit hit and miss yet. so listening and repeating does help.

what is Coiglímís, i cant find it in either of my dictionary's

Anything will do, for reading. When I first started, I'd look up the psalm of the day and read that! Reading a newspaper article from something like Beo would work too.

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