Name pronunciation

franc 91 · **Posted:** Tue 19 Nov 2013 4:23 pm

It's supposed to go back to the Occupation (specifically in Paris but probably elsewhere as well) when German soldiers would shout 'Acht Uhr' at anyone who was out in the street after or getting near to the 8 pm curfew. Arthur became a sort of bogeyman word addressed to naughty children.
Did the British impose one in Dublin, or in Cork for example in 1916? And did people think up any expressions in Irish concerning their presence?

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

It's supposed to go back to the Occupation (specifically in Paris but probably elsewhere as well) when German soldiers would shout 'Acht Uhr' at anyone who was out in the street after or getting near to the 8 pm curfew. Arthur became a sort of bogeyman word addressed to naughty children.

iongantach suimeamhail... grma! d'fhoghlaim mé rud eighineacht úr indiu!

Ióéil · **Joined:** Mon 18 Nov 2013 1:03 pm **Posts:** 4

Thanks everyone for all your input! I appreciate the research and taking time to reply. Thanks for all your help.

CaoimhínSF · **Joined:** Sun 04 Sep 2011 11:02 pm **Posts:** 1581

Lughaidh wrote:

Quote:

Toi tu vas te faire appeler Arthur

I heard my mom saying that when I was a child. Now you remind it to me and I'm wondering where it might come from... why Arthur? is Arthur an insult? :mrgreen:

Here's an interesting explanation for it which I found online:

Quote:

Cette expression proviendrait de la Seconde Guerre Mondiale et ferait référence à l'occupation de la France pendant laquelle le couvre-feu avait été fixé à 20h. Le nom "Arthur" serait une déformation de l'allemand "acht uhr'" ("vingt heures !") que les patrouilles ennemies criaient aux retardataires éventuels. "Se faire appeler Arthur", c'est se voir faire des remontrances, se faire disputer.

I found several sites online which cite that origin, but another one points out that the expression may be much older:

Quote:

BHVF a écrit:
Arthur (appeler qqn -) loc. verb. non conv. RELAT. - ø t. lex. réf. ; absent TLF. [se faire appeler Arthur : FEW (25, 374b) ; DFNC, 1954, Silvagni ; BEI, mil.20e ; DArg., ø d]
1849 - «GOBCHESTER. Oh ! god ! mais ce était un petit enragé. LE GAMIN, regardant Gobchester. Ah ! c't' hure !... GOBCHESTER. Il m'appelle Arthur !» Dumanoir, Clairville et Labiche, Exposition des produits de la République, 15 (M. Lévy) - P.E.

Murchadh · **Posted:** Wed 20 Nov 2013 6:14 pm

patrickjwalsh wrote:

I'm not sure how traditional the name is, and so if you found Ióéil in the 1981 Bible, it may have been a new form. Not necessarily, though. It is not in the 1923 Irish names and surnames by Patrick Woulffe.

The main question with words starting with I is whether the I is pronounced. The word looks like it should be /o:-'e:l'/ - Oh-ayl - but because it is ultimately from Hebrew, it may be intended that it be pronounced /jo:-'e:l'/ - yoh-ayl.

It's a difficult name, as it is disyllabic, making it hard to pronounce. Other Bible versions have Ióel - yoh-il or oh-il, /jo:-il'/ or /o:-il'/, which is closer to the English and more natural in Irish.

Properly the Irish name should be without a preceding y, but it is possible that the English/Hebrew pronunciations will influence the realisation.

Someone called Ióel could be called to thus: a Ióel, tair i leith, 'Joel, come here', pronounced /o:il'/ tar' i l'eh/.

Several works by Peadar Ua Laoghaire, e.g. 'Críost Mac Dé', seem to indicate pronunciation with an initial /j/ :-
do Ióseph instead of d'Ióseph (he uses d'Elisabet etc. elsewhere)
na Iúdaigh " " na hIúdaigh
another possible example is go dtí an Iórdan where one would expect go dtí an tIórdan.

I'd imagine 'Ióéil' would be something like /(j)ɑ:e:l'/ or /(j)ɑ:el'/ in Ulster Irish.

patrickjwalsh · **Joined:** Wed 24 Jul 2013 2:31 am **Posts:** 329

Murchadh wrote:

Several works by Peadar Ua Laoghaire, e.g. 'Críost Mac Dé', seem to indicate pronunciation with an initial /j/ :-
do Ióseph instead of d'Ióseph (he uses d'Elisabet etc. elsewhere)
na Iúdaigh " " na hIúdaigh
another possible example is go dtí an Iórdan where one would expect go dtí an tIórdan.

Yes - that is exactly the point. Clearly, many proper names in Críost Mac Dé are formed on the basis of the English forms that were probably more common in ecclesiastical circles in the 19th century. For this reason, I hesitated to say that Ióel was definitely without a /j/. However, note that the same writer used Eúróip for Europe (Iúróip, you could spell it) - and stated it was without an initial /j/, whereas another speaker on Oileán Chléire stated it was with an initial /j/.

As for Iúdach - well Giúdaíoch is the form given by other speakers of the same dialect. In fact, the original text of Críost Mac Dé has Iúdach in the singular, but Iúdaígh - not Iúdaigh - in the plural - possibly indicating the writer also had the Giúdaígh of other speakers of the same dialect?

Iórdan is a good example - and "sa Iórdan" in the same book is even clearer (not: san Iórdan).

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

I'd imagine 'Ióéil' would be something like /(j)ɑ:e:l'/ or /(j)ɑ:el'/ in Ulster Irish.

if you follow the rules of Ulster Irish pronunciation (but well, with loanwords, rules may be broken!), you'd say [ɔːɛlʲ].

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