Children in school here learn that 'liamhás' means 'ham', but I am yet to find a Gaeltacht person who uses the word although some, but not many, seem to recognise it. Without this thread descending into chaos, I am interested in hearing people's views about when there is a choice between using a word that has been 'created' in Irish for something or the English word that is used in the Gaeltacht, what do you think should be used?

'Ceapaire liamháis' or 'ceapaire ham' or as one very valued member of the forum recently suggested: 'sandwich ham'; 'Ba mhaith liom sandwich ham!' I say, 'Ba mhaith liom ceapaire liamháis'.

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I can't find "liamhás" in Dinneen, in Tobar na Gaedhilge, and even when I look for "ham" in Dinneen no word looks like that. The common word in Scottish Gaelic is "hama".
Maybe "ham" wasn't a common kind of food in old Ireland/Scotland, that's why they invented the word liamhás or borrowed the English word...
In Brittany ham wasn't common either, they also invented a word, and native speakers use a loanword. Looks like ham is a recent thing in Celtic countries.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

So which would you use if speaking Irish - the word that has been 'invented' for Irish or simply use the English word?

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personally, I would ask to some older speaker from Gaoth Dobhair what he/she says, and I would use the same word.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

My guess is that the older speaker uses 'ham'.

Does that mean that when something new is created, the chances are that you will use the English word instead of any newly 'invented' Irish words? I am thinking that as life is changing so quickly and so many new things are introduced to us, will native Irish speakers just use the English words as many of them may not encounter the 'invented' Irish words and so will not know them (or perhaps want them).

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Baldy has ceathrú bhagúin and liamhás for ham. i was taught muc feoil. I can't believe there isn't an old form commonly used since ham and cabbage is so common on the dinner table

Aye, "muiceoil" - an old compound.



they either borrow the English word (which is what happens most of the time) or create their own when it's possible.
As far as I'm concerned I have no problem with loanwords, all languages borrow from other languages, but the origin of the vocabulary isn't what makes the peculiarity of a language (2/3 of the English vocabulary comes from French or Latin). I don't like unnatural coined words that aren't even understandable to 99,99% of the native speakers. If the aim of the "word-creators" is to show that Irish isn't the same language as English, well... it's a bit childish... everybody knows that (well, those who have heard about Irish anyway). Creating words that aren't natural not understandable and that are only used by non-native speakers, to me, is a waste of time.

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

...just some thoughts...

bágún agus gobáiste = is what I heard
It is spelled
bágún agus cabáiste

I'm willing to bet that if you offered some 'bágún agus gobáiste' to that chap in Gaoth Dobhair, he'd be in little doubt what to do with it

bágún for me would denote 'ham' or 'bacon'
muiceoil does the same...

más is another word
...so you can see where 'liamhás' might come from... cut off one thigh/cheek....

an cheathrú bhágúin = that makes sense too...

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Bí cinnte de go nglacfaidh triúr le gach aistriúchán a thabharfar.
Be sure to get three in agreement with a translation given.

I use bágún for bacon (as in bacon and cabbage), muiceoil for pork and liamhás for ham as in the sliced stuff for a sandwich that isn't just bacon sliced. Actually as I write this, I realise I don't know what it actually is, but I know it when I see it!!

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This is a difficult one, even in the Gaeltacht there is a lot of variations.

You can find four possibilities:
(i) The English word, altered by Irish phonology and grammar.
(ii) An Irish translation of the English word.
(iii) A coined term, made by one of the official bodies.
(iv) A traditional word for the idea that isn't commonly known.

Now, (ii) and (iii) can coincide, although they often don't.

I've found that for animals, plants (or aspects of nature) not native to Ireland, native
speakers often accept and say (ii)/(iii).
For technology it's really (i) they use.

The real area of contention though is when there was a word that younger native speakers have
forgotten. For instance for anatomy many younger speakers don't know the original word for
spleen, let's say. They won't use a coined term, since they find it unnatural, but they will use
the English word. However I've met older speakers who would prefer if you used a coined term
instead of the English term. (Or course they'd prefer you to use the original word.)

So it's a complicated issue.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal