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PostPosted: Thu 18 Jul 2013 10:30 pm 
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I've got one quick question about a sentence in Cuid a Deich; here's the whole sentence:
Bhíodar ana-bhaoch den mhnaoi abhrais, agus dúradar léi arís agus arís eile go ndéanfaidís an bheart a bhí déanta aici dhóibh do chúiteamh léi.

Okay, here's what I could make out of it:
"They were very thankful to the spinning woman, and they said to her again and again that they would do … ???? … to repay her."

I can't quite figure out "an bheart a bhí déanta aici dhóibh" – does anybody understand what this means?


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PostPosted: Thu 18 Jul 2013 10:46 pm 
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An bheart a bhí déanta aici dhóibh The act which she had done for them

Do dheineas rud éigint a chúiteamh le Seán I repaid Seán for something.

Déanfaidís an bheart a bhí déanta aici dhóibh do chúiteamh léi. They would repay her for what she had done for them.

Thanks for mentioning this, I should add a more complete explanation to the notes.

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Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


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PostPosted: Fri 19 Jul 2013 12:48 am 
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Ah, now I see how that works! :D

Using what I've learnt in the sentence: Táim ana-bhaoch díot as an gcúnamh, a Loin Dhuibh!


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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jul 2013 2:21 am 
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Cuid a haon

Ins an téacs litrítear "fadó mar "fad ó" ach thá fadó agat ins an anailís.

In the transcript you have i néirinn, it should be i nÉirinn

Ba bhreaghtha (many authors used to spell breagh as breágh and breaghtha as breághtha, just like cónaí can be cómhnaidhe or comhnaidhe. Breágh is found in Dineen). The standardised spelling is breá and breátha, very often pronounced incorrectly as the English "bra"

Tá(id) na fir is breátha sa tsraidbhaile sin
Bhí(odar) na fir ba bhreátha sa tsráidbhaile sin

Le Fághail

*1 "Cuireadh Past autonomous of Cuir"

*1 The past autonomous is unlenited in every dialect except in Ring, where its Chuireadh; pronounced as Chuireag

*2 "Feictí"

*2 Am I right in thinking that the autonomous habitual past is not lenited in Cork Irish, but I think its lenited everywhere else? A quick note hear might be useful for others? Just a thought.

"Gheibheann sé He gets. This is the independent form, with Faigheann sé the dependent form. Quite often, especially today, Faigheann is used in both cases".

I think it would be best to put the "" in before (faigheann> ní fhaigheann) just so it clear why its dependent. Do you think gheibheann came about as a result of the relative particle "do" preceding faigheann > dh'fhaigheann, just like fághailt can become dh'fhághailt. It looks that way to me, especially since the dependent form has retained the stem after ní (ní fhaigheann) and the g is always lenited in gheibheann. Any idea????

pg.8

Tá sé am' b(h?)ualadh

agá muíntir At her people. Agá  is a contraction of ag + a. Note that in verbal noun constructions ag + a contracts to á, but elsewhere to agá:

Tá an carr agá mathair Her mother has the car.

Could this also mean Their mother has the car then?

Tá m'athair á muineadh My father is teaching her

can you say:

Tá an carr ag a máthair?

and

Tá m'athair á múineadh í?

The ag+pronoun form is probably the area I know least about, I know dá (dia Old. Ir) etc... naturally but never really came across these, never where they were actually explained.

Seana-chaint na nDéise, pg. 8, for (ag + possessive pronouns) has:

'ge-m at my
'ge-t (before vowels), 'ge-d (before consonants) at thy
'ge-n-a or geá at his, hers, theirs
'ge-n-ár at our
'ge-n-úr at your (yer)

pg. 138

(13) "... mo, do, a (his), ár, úr...bí at [ag do] dh'fhaire fhéin, mind yourself; bhí an sagart 'á [ag a] dh'éisteacht, the priest was hearing his confession; bhíomair 'n-ár [aige n-ár] dh'fhaire fhéin, we were minding ourselves; bígí 'n-úr dh'fhaire fhéin, mind yourselves (yerselves)...bhí an sagart á héisteacht, the prist was hearing her confession, bhí sí 'á faire féin (but some say 'á haire), she was minding herself; bhíodar 'á bhfaire fhéin, they were minding themselves; bhí an sagart á n-éisteacht, the priest was hearing their confessions.

Interestingly Seana-chaint na nDéise gives some variation:

Verbal Nouns, pg. 168/ 170

(4) Canon O' Leary says that "dá" is passive, "ghá" active, but it is not easy to decide in the Déise, as 'á is most often used or else "dhá" or "ghá" which are indistinguishable; still I have heard th full word "dá" in the active sense...thá na prátaí á ndéanadh mar seo, the potatoes are forming just now, thá na báid á mbá, the boats are sinking; thá féara na dúithche á ngearradh anois, the hay-crops of the country-side are being cut now; bhí sé á chailleamhaint le gáire...he was dying of laughter.

(14) Where Canon O' Leary and others would say, cad tá agat dá dhéanamh? "What are you doing?" we say cad athá tu a dhéanadh? The "a" is for "do". So, too, in the example under éileamh, Canon O' L. would say,

(PUL) "sin sean-éileamh atá aige dá ghlaodhach orm (S.C na nD, pg. 170)"
(Déise S.C na nD pg.74) "sin sean-éileamh athá sé a ghlaoch orm" (that is an old debt which he is claiming from me.

Although,

"bhfuil ao' rud le héileamh aige orm?" Do I owe him anything?

is also listed (pg.74)

éileamh= fiacha

Pg. 210/211, Pronouns

(2) "If the relative in English is governed in the objective case by a following verbal noun as in "the thing which I was doing," "the cow which he was selling," we translate: an rud a bhí mé a dhéanamh : an bhó a bhí sé a dhíol. The "a" before the verbal noun is for "do" and always aspirates. The Déise form is used also in Connaught and Ulster; West Munster prefers 'gá dhéanamh and gá díol; both forms are found in Keating"

*Iairlis, the text and the transcript both have iarlis, with iarlais being the more authoritative spelling. Possibly stay loyal to the text, though it makes no difference pronunciation wise!

Also you might want to add in the fact that changelings were often used as a means of explaining traumatic phenomena; such as the untimely death or severe sickness of a child or loved one, in a world full of superstition and not much scientific logic or understanding.

Cian

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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jul 2013 2:48 am 
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I gcás an tséimhiú i ndiaidh an ainm bhriathartha insa Chaighdeán:

Leabhar Gramadaí Gaeilge, le Nollaig Mac Congáil, lch 60

7 (h) "Má leanann ainmfhocal éiginnte ainm briathartha a dtagann réamhfhocal simplí roimhe, níl aon séimhiú ann:

ag cogaint milseáin chewing a sweet
ag tógáil balla building a wall

Eisceachtaí : ag gabháil cheoil / fhoinn , ag fáil bháis

But the exceptions' list is by no means exhaustive.

Cian

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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jul 2013 4:23 pm 
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Cuid a dó

:good: fair play dhuit a Loin Dhuibh,

Sórd: Is sórd still common or is sórt more common now?

a-bhfad ó'n gcnoc

I think an explanation here regarding the use of the preposition "a", instead of the more traditional "i", would be helpful.

"a" was often used instead of "i" until very recently (pre-standard), as it may better reflect the more modern pronunciation when spoken at a quick, natural pace. The "a" instead of "i" still exists to a certain degree, where they have been incorporated to mean a certain phrase or word. That's why Scottish Gaelic has a-steach and standardised Irish Gaelic has isteach and Irish has ins and Scottish Gaelic has ann(s).

isteach = the preposition i / a + s (historical s) + teach (house in the accusative)
isti(o)gh= the preposition i / a + s (historical s) + ti(o)gh (house in the dative)

The prepositional pronoun "ann" is a mixture of i + sé.

The word amárach/ amáireach shows the preposition "a" for "i" mix-up very clearly.

amárach comes from i mbárach> amárach. Bárach means spancelling, the act of tying a rope around a cow's neck and attaching the rope to the cow's hoof, in order to stop the cow kicking when you are milking her. When the cow went to kick she would pull her head down and that would stop her from kicking. "At spancilling" became synonymous with morning in Irish.

Buaileadh is spelled incorrectly in the text and in the transcription as buiaileadh

i gcionn cionn is the masculine dative singular of ceann.

inead is spelled as ineadh in the text and in the transcription.

Leaba, I personally use leabaidh as the nominative, leapan as the genitive and leapain as the dative. Have you ever seen leapain as the dative? It makes sense to me as leapan is the genitive, just like -__ na teangan (T.G) but don (d)teangain; coisleán na Blarnan, insa Bhlarnain.


Cuid a trí

Ceirthlín

A quick explanation about the lenition of the "t" as being a Cork Irish phenomenon may be helpful?. Ceirtlín also means a head of cabbage. Ceirtlín comes from ceirt which is the original dative, come nominative of ceart, meaning rag.

Cruadh is Cruaidh in Ring, I thought cruaidh was the version most used in Cork also?

Cuirim abhaile é ag triall ar S(h?)eán

You have a mixture of fé ndear and fé ndeár, fé ndear is in the text and transcription. While meaning cause(d), I think you should mention when combined with "tabhair", it means realise or to be aware of/ notice.

Do bhí sé á rá go raibh tuirse uirthi He was saying that she was tired.
The a is a contraction of ag + a at its. The sentence would literally translate to:
Do bhí sé á rá go raibh tuirse uirthi He was at its saying that she was tired.

Question, should this not translate to "he was at his saying that she was tired??? or does the á represent tuirse in this sentence, such as the é in the sentence "Bhí áthas orthu é bheith le rá acu go bhfeacadar an Rí" or does it represent the person who is actually making the statement?

Cuireann sé áthas orm tú bheith chomh maith is taoi

Cad é sin dó san cad a dhéanfaidh an Ard-Righeacht ?
What is that to that one/man, what the High-Kingship would do? (What will the high-kingship (will) do?)

I think "dó san" should be dó-san or dósan just so its clear that -san is the emphatic or forainm threise and not the Munster variation of sin.

fé ndeár/ fé ndear aríst??

Tamall de'n oíche, the older spelling oidhche is retained in the text

Solus árneáin, solus arneáin is in the text, while solus áirneáin is the authoritative spelling. Either way I think the a should be accented. The caol le caol is just arbitrary.

a d'iarraidh, this is dh'iarraidh in Ring.

Cian

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jul 2013 9:22 pm 
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Here are a few small corrections for Cuid a deich:
In Irish, unstressed short vowels, if they are preceded or followed by a long vowel, [comma] are not pronounced.

In Classical Irish, [comma] the initial mutation … of the noun. [only one period at the end of the sentence]

In "The Official Wee Falorie Man Dialect": Wisdom that is gained through experience.

That's all. I didn't see any other typos in the notes for Cuid a deich.
If all goes well, I'll be ready to start on Cuid a haon déag by the end of this week. :)


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jul 2013 1:14 am 
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Cuid a ceathair

From the text and the trasgríobh:

agus an saoghal 'n-a gcodladh

agus an saoghal 'n-a chodladh?

Nuair fhéach sí cruinn ortha féin

Nuair d(h)'fhéach sí...?

úrlar, urlár? though úrlár seems to me to be a more accurate spelling for the pronunciation (I see you also have úrlár in the analyses :) ).

Do bhuaileas chuige an dorus isteach I came in the door towards him

Do thugas isteach I brought in.

Thugas can also idiomatically mean I spent (as in time somewhere or doing an activity, not money)

Thugas an oidhche a' rinnce I spent the night dancing

This idiomatic phrase is also in Hiberno-English

Tabhair + fé can also mean attack or go about doing something

Thugas fé'n obair go lán-tseól

Thug sé fúm

He attacked me

Also in Hiberno English as: He went for me (still very common)

Congnamh

Maybe a little note that Congnamh is a pre-standard spelling of Cúnamh and is pronounced the same today, just incase people don't see the connection and think that they are two seperate words.

I am really enjoying the story and your analyses an Lon Dubh :good: ! I am learning a heap! When you see something like:

Tá sé ag teacht an cóngar He is taking the shortcut.

It highlights a very common mistake people (including natives) make about using englishy phrases when there is or used to be beautiful idioms for the same expression. Most people would have used

Thóg sé an cóngar, though thóg sé an cóngar is perfectly acceptable now, it makes you think of all the expressions like this that have been lost!

Cian

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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jul 2013 2:35 am 
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Quote:
an saoghal 'n-a gcodladh


An saol=everyone=plural in meaning ('everyone was sleeping in their beds' in English)


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PostPosted: Wed 24 Jul 2013 2:48 am 
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patrickjwalsh wrote:
Quote:
an saoghal 'n-a gcodladh


An saol=everyone=plural in meaning ('everyone was sleeping in their beds' in English)


Of course, I over looked an saoghal as meaning everybody. Thá go maith, go raibh maith agat a Phádraig.

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