I dont have a fear or I don't feel embarrassment in relation to Irish but I can relate to what your sayiń as a pretty shy person myself I have probably limited my chances of meeting other Irish speakers and practicing. But when I do I am not conscious or fearful of making mistakes I just go with the flow. Like anything the more you practice the better you get and external feedback is the key for me not worrying in myself about it. Obviously I want to get better but I think getting frustrated with myself would be counter productive, I try as much as possible to just enjoy the learning process and accept I'm not fluent etc

I can vouch for Féabar's method he's very methodical in learning and steamed ahead of me, whereas I am very loose and go with the flow too much and that doesn't equal productive learning!!

Somhairle: I haven't steamed past anyone, especially you. I have learned much from people on this forum. A couple of interesting truths that have helped me along the way have come from here. One thing was in the very beginning (right at 4 years ago now), Brendan said to stick with Irish spelling and not to mess around with phonetic renderings, etc. He said eventually my brain would accept the weird (my word) orthography. It is exactly what happened. It mainstreams you into a lot of how the language works. I try to just write in the CO because most of the literature I read, posts that I read, etc. are written that way. It's hard enough for me just to try to get my pea brain around one type of spelling. I am not passing any normative judgment on dialects etc when I do that, I'm just trying to get my own mind around the quantity of information that I think my mind can remember in the BAM moment.

Another truth I received was from the discussion we had one time about how the mind works and the different ways we each learn. Again Brendan said that he will work and work and work away at some word to remember it and just can't and BAM.....all of the sudden it just is part of his collective memory. I find much truth and comfort in that knowledge. For example, last night I went to a Ducks Unlimited Banquet with my daughter, and I pulled out my iPhone and looked up "céile" in my Collins dictionary. BAM.... I suddenly understand, feel, and am able to use the phrase "de réir a chéile" meaning "gradually". It now says that thought in my mind when my mouth says those words. THAT is a "BAM" breakthrough. Why did that moment wait to happen in a banquet room with 1,000 people all talking and a million distractions. Who knows?


I may have been misunderstood along the way here on the Forum to be too casual in my learning approach or attempts at speaking. I think I've never been able to express what I am thinking and feeling until now. It was given to me here today by Audrey. Language (for me) IS INDEED to me much like music. When I want to learn music well, I start with a piece outrageously slow. I play it as perfectly as I can NOT FOCUSING ON SPEED AT ALL. In time it gains its own speed and is played beautifully. I couldn't really have a conversation in Irish till about a year ago. I was intently studying 2-3 times per week and I decided to go to a Fullbright Teacher's conference in New York. ALL of the seminar was in Irish all day long for 3 days. I understood well for a while and then fatigue would hit and all I understood was "agus" and "den cuid is mó". I went to my room one night and I thought "What in the HELL am I doing here. This was a total waste of my money, and I guess I'll just never be able to speak in Irish. This cowboy just needs to get back home to the farm in Texas and say he tried". I came home and sort of surrendered and didn't look at it for about 3 weeks. I was not depressed. I was just super disappointed that something like this language could defeat me. It is the most damned difficult language I've ever studied. (one of my study partners says f...ing foreign. That is why we just keep on trying.

In the ensuing weeks I would talk to my Skype partner in Cildara on Sundays. He is one of the most wonderfully patient people I have ever met. I have a sheet (I got at Oideas Gael) that we used where all we did was ask each other all of the question words with the irregular words. For example:

Cad a rinne tú an seactain seo caite? Ans: D'ith muid sa bialann Sineach.
Cén fáth an ndearna sibh sin? Ans. Mar a bhí ocras orm nó rudaí mar sin.. (an dtuigeann sibh?)
Cá áit a raibh an bhialann? Ans. Bhí sé i XXXXXXXXXXXX
Agus, cad é mar a bhí an bia? Ans. Bhí blasta.
Cén úair a bhí sibh ann? Ans. Ag a naoi

After about 3 weeks I just starting talking, expanding, and using an amazing amount of my stored up vocabulary. The key is when you're doing this realize that you are PLAYING THE MUSIC SLOWLY. Do it methodically. Our minds and our mouths cannot speak up to the speed of some native or to the speed with which we rattle off memorized phrases we have learned along the way. Our mind takes hold of our mouth and abstract thoughts figure out how to make their way to our mouths. I believe reading, writing, speaking, and hearing are all very different skill sets. They are all important, but I want to play the music..... so in my paradigm it has erred on the side of trying to be bold enough (or crazy enough) to just speak effectively the little irish that i do know. I also find that I usually hear my own mistakes as they come out of my mouth. And, if I can take a minute I can just self-correct I can do so. A good learning partner knows when the mistake has become systemic and then can say "I think it might be said as such and such". You then go through a little structural therapy to get it right.

I think a huge hindrance is when you get on-line with a study partner and expect to have some full blown conversation. We need to all just STOP IT (to quote the psychiatrist Bob Newhart - go see video on Youtube). For me, that is just not where my mind is yet. I also read little novels slowly with buddies (a guy in Wisconsin and a gal in California) and then we'll stop after a paragraph and ask each other "Cad a tharlíonn sa scéal anois?" The other person can slowly regurgitate the thoughts of what the book said through their brain and out their mouth. Practice is slow and it is deliberate, but it will speed up in time. Let's all play the music slowly in faith, knowing in time we will all play a wonderful concert "le chéile". Féabar

Listening is a whole other subject.- You must hear later about my evening with Bríd and hearing Connemara Irish for the first time (now that was embarrassing indeed). Sounded like an absolutely different language. I am now beginning to listen to RNG on-line through my Bose system and I'm getting used to hearing all sorts of accents.

Writing - is getting better because I type out books
Reading - is my highest level of skill faoi lathair

Don't be modest now.



Ah go on, do tell.

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It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.
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Have faith Redwolf :}. I have known you since the Irishgaelictranslator days. In fact, you inspired to begin learning Irish for which I am thankful!

In regards to the Irish language, from my own experience it can often take one on a wild ride, but it is well worth it.

Swiss

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Irish Gaelic Tutor
http://www.Irishgaelictutoring.com

Bríd: PLEASE!

You told me what happened in Connemara would stay in Connemara, and you said it would be our little secret.

If you are fortunate enough to have a few people to talk to, it's obviously the best way to become comfortable speaking.

Ideally, some would be slightly behind your level - that shows you how far you have come; this can be very encouraging and also gives you opportunities to 'teach' others which forces you to think about why something is the way it is and thus improves your own understanding.

Most importantly, some are ahead of you so that you can learn from them. You need to have people who are better than you to help you to improve.

The best suggestion of all, of course, is to move to An Ghaeltacht for a few months.......!

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Redwolf, I suspect your Irish might be better than you think it is. Maybe your frustration has something to do with "hitting a plateau." When you've been at something a long time, your progress starts to slow down. It's easy to make improvements when you're just starting out, but it's harder to break through from intermediate to advanced levels.

Going back to the music analogy, I know lots of young musicians who get better every time I hear them, and I know a few people who've been gigging for decades and are not much better now than they were 10 years ago.

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Táim ag foghlaim fós. Fáilte roimh gach aon cheartúchán.

My written Irish is reasonably good, and I both read and understand spoken Irish well (the latter sometimes takes a bit of adjusting for dialect, but once my ear gets used to what I'm hearing, I don't have too much trouble with understanding). But I'm really not exaggerating the state of my spoken Irish...my brain just freezes up, and I can't seem to access what I know.

Saoirse...we have convo groups about once a month (that's about all we can manage, as we come from all over the Bay Area). For a while we had a local convo group that met weekly, but it really wasn't sustainable. And, of course, I go to the immersion weekend every year. The thing is, while I amass a lot more grammar and vocabulary during these things, it doesn't seem to reflect in my ability to speak. I really think that I've got some kind of mental block that's going to take some work to get around.

That's why I'd love to spend a month in Donegal if I can (if not this year, next year). I really think I need that level of immersion to get me past that barrier.

Redwolf

I think you really do need an opportunity to immerse yourself properly to give yourself a decent shot at breaking through the barrier you've hit. It's really a case of accessing what you clearly know at a speed where you feel comfortable speaking; only immersion (or close to it) for a period can do that.

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C'est quoi, ça?