Here's a question for all of you, regardless of where you stand on the subject:

1) When you say "Urban Irish," what, precisely, do you mean?

2) Working within your definition of the term, what is your opinion of it? Do you see it as a positive or negative thing (and why?)?

This is for an article, and I will not be quoting anyone directly, though I will be offering my own opinion (since that is the nature of the blog), and I may paraphrase some of the opinions given here. I will post a link to the article here when it's done so that anyone who wishes may comment on what I've said (and you're also, of course, free to comment directly in the comments section under the post itself).

Here's the definition from which I'm currently working, though I'm willing to refine it, if necessary:



Looking forward to thoughtful input!

Redwolf

Ah, another safe topic.

If those were the only defining characteristics of Urban Irish there might not be any problem.

Where problems tend to arise in pursuing Urban is when people ignore the native language and start making things up themselves based on English - English pronunciation, English idiom and English grammar (or lack thereof). An Urban "dialect" based on the native language is possible and has been achieved in such texts as Buntús Cainte, as I have mentioned on previous occasions, without having to compromise the essence of the language. Once you lose the connection to the source and essence of the language, it ceases to be the same language.

Often Urban is touted as "the future of Irish". Theoretically, and practically, the future of English is a non-native ESL creole called "Global". Just as most native speakers of English are opposed to the breakdown of English (however inevitable it may be) so too are speakers of native Irish opposed to the artificial breakdown of Irish into a creole.

People whose aim is purportedly to support the language could be supporting the native language by learning a native dialect or at least retaining native pronunciation but are instead so often inadvertently promoting the creole and in so doing contributing to the demise of the native language.

I am sure there will be no shortage of counter-opinions and counter-counter-opinions ...

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Múinteoir Gaeilge - Irish Teacher
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).

Safe topics are no fun to write about, Breandán!

Seriously, though, I hear the term used a lot, but I'm not sure we're all defining it the same way...hence my question.

Redwolf

In short: Urban Irish is bad Irish as spoken by (most) non-native speakers who live in towns



Buntús Cainte is standard Irish, and standard Irish isn't really "Urban Irish". Urban Irish is full of mistakes, it's English in disguise ; standard Irish is an artificial dialect, based on several Gaeltacht dialects and some old features that don't exist in the Gaeltacht anymore (eg. the -amar past ending). Standard Irish isn't a natural dialect, but it's not nonsense as Urban Irish is
Let's say, Gaeltacht Irish is a beautiful flower ; standard Irish is a plastic flower (that isn't really like any existing flower) ; Urban Irish is sh*t (well, it's not even sh*t because sh*t is manure that helps flowers or other plants to grow ). Urban Irish is weeds that try to replace the flowers...

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Could I ask you to elaborate on that a bit? I'm asking because most of the people I know who speak what I think of as "Urban Irish," DON'T have "Irish full of mistakes," or "Irish that is English in disguise," so I'm trying to figure out where, specifically, you're getting that impression. Examples would be great.

Redwolf

This is why I don't like the term Urban Irish. It's a vague political term that doesn't really mean anything.

What Redwolf is describing I would call standard Irish. I think of it as Irish that for the most part follows the rules of the Official Standard (but there may be some dialect features in the pronunciation or word choice).

What Lughaidh is describing, I would simply call “beginner Irish.” Yes, I know some people have been speaking that way for decades and consider themselves to be at an advanced level, but if they're still making the mistakes typical of a beginner, then what else can you call it?

Another reason I don't like the word urban is because Irish speakers in small towns and rural areas are no different to those in the cities, why pick on the "urban" people?

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Táim ag foghlaim fós. Fáilte roimh gach aon cheartúchán.

To me the term "Urban Irish", is a one of many possible labels for the forms of Irish, where Hiberno-English
features, or even standard English features (features being morphology, syntax, phonemes, e.t.c.) are accepted
as a valid way to pronounce or use Irish, simply because the person using them is Irish. It would be the form
of Irish spoken by the vast majority of Gaelscoileanna pupils.

The main reasons I don't like it are two fold.

First of all, it has lead to a insulated bubble where people only hear an very odd non-native form of the language and end up thinking the native language is wrong and, even worse, they correct native speakers. I haven't been to Conamara much, but I was there over the summer and spoke to an old man who had been told in school that the way he spoke was incorrect. The "correct way" was, as you would guess, some made up garbage that has never been spoken by any native speaker. I met a teacher from Conradh na Gaeilge who told me that Do chuireas is a mistake, the correct way to say it is Chuir mé and that they Ulster negative particle Cha(n) was made up.

Secondly, it leads to an obvious reduction in people's ability to handle the language, since it's really just Irish cloth on an Anglophone mind. As an anecdotal example, I often have old Munster Irish books with me when I go to any of the Gaeltachtaí and people have asked me what I'm reading and read a bit themselves. Now, of course there might be a phrase or two they can't handle, since it isn't in their dialect, or there might be a Munster word or form they don't know, but that's about it. However Gaelscoileanna pupils genuinely cannot read the books and struggle over the meaning of objectively basic sentences. This is because, although the sentences are basic, they are written with a native speaker's mind, there is no English logic in them. My main point here is that they cannot connect with the heritage that they're supposed to be learning Irish to access.

That's what I think.

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The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal

This is useful stuff, folks...keep it coming!

[edited to say that I'm going to post the request I made here in a separate thread to avoid confusion]

Redwolf

a Ghaeilg bhocht... cha dtarlann a leithéid d'amaidíochtaí ach in Éirinn agus sa Bhriotáin...
Such people shouldn't be allowed to teach at all, until they learn what a language is and what real Irish is...

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Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

This is a very difficult question! Harsh Lughaidh harsh

As you probably know Lughaidh, the synthetic form "amair" is the only form used in Munster. I'd say you'd be lynched if you said bhí muid . That just indicates how localised the Irish language's mentality is! Which makes this question so much harder and is the basis as to why there are so many misconceptions surrounding "Gaeltacht people's Irish" and vice-versa!

Urban Irish, for me, is the language spoken outside of the Gaeltacht, which uses for the most part the standard as the medium for expression. Although, urban Irish and standard Irish are not totally synonymous, the standard is the version of most learners- so therefore, it always gets the blame. Urban Irish is the language of the learner and therefore, naturally, it has traits more in common with the mother-tongue of most Irish people i.e English. Especially, the pronunciation which is very poor from most learners as most people don't know how to pronounce words correctly, regardless of accent; and they were never corrected by anyone, because they (their teachers) themselves didn't know they had poor pronunciation! This leads people to believe that their pronunciation, which is based on English, is their dialect and the way a Gaeltacht person pronounces is their dialect, or worse, its bog peoples' talk ! The standard has not helped this either as it places no emphasis on pronunciation.

Now, on the idea of the influence of English, naturally again, the urban/ non-Gaeltacht learner would be more open to English syntax and other English features. However, Gaeltacht people are not free of this either. Increasingly Gaeltacht Irish is becoming more and more corrupt with English! Now, here's my main point, if everyone in the country turned to Gaeltacht Irish in the morning, in my opinion, there would be no affect on the influence of English syntax on Irish; because corrupting your learning language with influences from your mother-tongue is a natural process of any learner learning any language! These changes need to happen gradually from learners being SOFTLY corrected and pointed in the correct path. There may however be a change in pronunciation, as Gaeltacht Irish has "guidelines" for pronunciation. The pronunciation guidelines in Buntús Cainte, as Breandán has pointed out, may have worked if they were implemented!

There is also a psyche that our educational system has created, where students feel absolutely scrutinised and looked down upon when they are speaking Irish. Feeling scrutinised has made students very uncomfortable when they are speaking Irish also. This has created the idea that this version of Irish i.e the Caighdeán is correct and any other version that is uncommon to them is incorrect. Our education system needs to foster a course where students realise that Irish is a language firstly, a valuable and in my opinion one of the most beautiful means of expression oneself, rather than an exam subject.

Urban Irish is a valuable indicator for telling us how much peoples attitude to Irish has changed. These people should also be commended for what they are doing! I believe urban Irish speakers need to be helped along rather than totally scrutinised as well. But in order for that to work, learners who are ignorant of their mistakes and blame their mistakes on their "localised misconceptions" must realise that it is NOT "Gaeltacht élitism" to be corrected for such mistakes and they must not takes things so personally. They also need to gain an understanding of Dialectal Irish- so things like what Lon dubh has said don't happen Our education system is an absolute disgrace at providing information on the dialects; so much so it has banned Gaeltacht Irish entirely and it is only until very recently that these restrictions were somewhat relaxed! But still Munster speakers cannot write Gaoluinn!

Now where I have the problem with urban Irish has just been epitomised by Lon Dubh's examples:



Here we can see the disgraceful treatment of the Conamara Gaeltacht speaker, who has no say in his actual native language as it was passed down through the generations to him. Also, either the ignorance or the arrogance of the Conradh na Gaeilge fella who totally disregarded the Munster Irish synthetic forms that have their basis in old Irish! He was either unaware of the Munster forms (ignorance) or he wanted to give you a simplified version of Irish because you as a learner are to "stupid" to understand the synthetic forms, which was one of the main reasons for the caighdeán in the first place (a simplified language for learners) i.e arrogance!

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice