maith go ndeárna

djwebb2021 · **Joined:** Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am **Posts:** 1209

In Cnósach Focal ó Bhaile Bhúirne, p88, under "dinim", there is this:

Quote:

math go ndeárna - lit. may it (sc. alms) do good

This quotes a Muskerry native using a form not found in Muskerry. Brian Ó Cuív translates it as "may it do good", but ndéarna is past tense, right. May it do good! should be maith go ndéana sé???? Has Ó Cuív totally misunderstood what deárna means?

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1323

It's an alternate subjunctive form. You'll see it in Croí Cainte Ciarraí for example or Ceann Trá Uimhir a hAon. Some speakers say Go ndeine and some say Go ndeárna. It's similar to how some say dheineadar, some dheárnadar and some rinneadar.

Here it's just which root is taken "dein/deárn" with the subjunctive being formed by adding a schwa sound. It's the predominant form in some areas.

Why the past is used I'd have ideas, but nothing concrete. Maybe silmeth will know.

djwebb2021 · **Joined:** Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am **Posts:** 1209

An Lon Dubh wrote:

It's an alternate subjunctive form. You'll see it in Croí Cainte Ciarraí for example or Ceann Trá Uimhir a hAon. Some speakers say Go ndeine and some say Go ndeárna. It's similar to how some say dheineadar, some dheárnadar and some rinneadar.

Here it's just which root is taken "dein/deárn" with the subjunctive being formed by adding a schwa sound. It's the predominant form in some areas.

Why the past is used I'd have ideas, but nothing concrete. Maybe silmeth might know.

Thank you. I see.

silmeth · **Joined:** Fri 08 Jan 2016 11:37 pm **Posts:** 258

I’ve no idea why but seems it’s a pretty old thing. DIL:

DIL, s.v. do-gní wrote:

In later lang. [ie. in Early Modern Irish, maybe MidIr. too] the prot[otonic, ie. dependent] stem dén- is almost entirely replaced by dern- throughout the subjunctive (IGT Verbs §1).

IGT Verbs §1 lists:

Quote:

(…) gé chuin do-neis a .s. ó indscni thú, gé chuin do-né on dá innscne ele : gé chuin ná derna .s. a .nd. araen. (…) gé chuin do-neam : gé chuin ná dernam, gé chuin nach dernam a .s. (…) gé chuin do-neithí, gé chuin na derntaí a .s. (…) gé chuin do-net, gé chuin ná dernad a .s. (…) gé chuin do-nethear : gé chuin ná derntar a .s.

It has indep. do-né vs dep. ná dearna.

McKenna in Aithdioghluim Dána lists these forms:

Léamh glossary, s.v. do-ním wrote:

Subj. do-near, -dearnar; do-néis, -dearna; do-né, -dearna: do-neam, -dearnam; do-neithe, -dearntaoi; do-nead, -dearnad; do-neithir, -dearntar;

So seems like the dep. form was pretty much thoroughly -dearna by Classical Gaelic times – but also for regular verbs the pres. subjunctive was mostly identical with present tense, so that was a push for forms without the -r-, I guess?

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1323

Quote:

In later lang. [ie. in Early Modern Irish, maybe MidIr. too] the prot[otonic, ie. dependent] stem dén- is almost entirely replaced by dern- throughout the subjunctive (IGT Verbs §1).

Ah very interesting. Thanks for that.

Labhrás · **Joined:** Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm **Posts:** 1747

The particle ro was used as a marker of perfectivity in past tense but also as a marker of potentiality in subjunctive mood, still so in negative sentences (nár = ná ro). But there are still positive forms like gura (copula) and go raibh (bí), at least in optative use (elsewhere go mbí).
So, go ndearna (< do-ro-gní) makes sense, too.

silmeth · **Joined:** Fri 08 Jan 2016 11:37 pm **Posts:** 258

Yeah, I thought about the copula (and its path from subjunctive form → future form (through confusion of the two in some contexts) → present form (gur(b))) and about raibh – but didn’t notice it’s in nár too, interesting!

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