It is currently Thu 30 May 2024 3:01 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: maith go ndeárna
PostPosted: Mon 29 May 2023 4:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1181
In Cnósach Focal ó Bhaile Bhúirne, p88, under "dinim", there is this:
Quote:
math go ndeárna - lit. may it (sc. alms) do good

This quotes a Muskerry native using a form not found in Muskerry. Brian Ó Cuív translates it as "may it do good", but ndéarna is past tense, right. May it do good! should be maith go ndéana sé???? Has Ó Cuív totally misunderstood what deárna means?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: maith go ndeárna
PostPosted: Tue 30 May 2023 12:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm
Posts: 1323
It's an alternate subjunctive form. You'll see it in Croí Cainte Ciarraí for example or Ceann Trá Uimhir a hAon. Some speakers say Go ndeine and some say Go ndeárna. It's similar to how some say dheineadar, some dheárnadar and some rinneadar.

Here it's just which root is taken "dein/deárn" with the subjunctive being formed by adding a schwa sound. It's the predominant form in some areas.

Why the past is used I'd have ideas, but nothing concrete. Maybe silmeth will know.

_________________
The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: maith go ndeárna
PostPosted: Tue 30 May 2023 1:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1181
An Lon Dubh wrote:
It's an alternate subjunctive form. You'll see it in Croí Cainte Ciarraí for example or Ceann Trá Uimhir a hAon. Some speakers say Go ndeine and some say Go ndeárna. It's similar to how some say dheineadar, some dheárnadar and some rinneadar.

Here it's just which root is taken "dein/deárn" with the subjunctive being formed by adding a schwa sound. It's the predominant form in some areas.

Why the past is used I'd have ideas, but nothing concrete. Maybe silmeth might know.

Thank you. I see.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: maith go ndeárna
PostPosted: Tue 30 May 2023 1:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 08 Jan 2016 11:37 pm
Posts: 258
I’ve no idea why but seems it’s a pretty old thing. DIL:
In later lang. [ie. in Early Modern Irish, maybe MidIr. too] the prot[otonic, ie. dependent] stem dén- is almost entirely replaced by dern- throughout the subjunctive (IGT Verbs §1).


IGT Verbs §1 lists:
Quote:
(…) gé chuin do-neis a .s. ó indscni thú, gé chuin do-né on dá innscne ele : gé chuin ná derna .s. a .nd. araen. (…) gé chuin do-neam : gé chuin ná dernam, gé chuin nach dernam a .s. (…) gé chuin do-neithí, gé chuin na derntaí a .s. (…) gé chuin do-net, gé chuin ná dernad a .s. (…) gé chuin do-nethear : gé chuin ná derntar a .s.


It has indep. do-né vs dep. ná dearna.

McKenna in Aithdioghluim Dána lists these forms:
Léamh glossary, s.v. do-ním wrote:
Subj. do-near, -dearnar; do-néis, -dearna; do-né, -dearna: do-neam, -dearnam; do-neithe, -dearntaoi; do-nead, -dearnad; do-neithir, -dearntar;


So seems like the dep. form was pretty much thoroughly -dearna by Classical Gaelic times – but also for regular verbs the pres. subjunctive was mostly identical with present tense, so that was a push for forms without the -r-, I guess?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: maith go ndeárna
PostPosted: Tue 30 May 2023 2:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm
Posts: 1323
Quote:
In later lang. [ie. in Early Modern Irish, maybe MidIr. too] the prot[otonic, ie. dependent] stem dén- is almost entirely replaced by dern- throughout the subjunctive (IGT Verbs §1).

Ah very interesting. Thanks for that.

_________________
The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: maith go ndeárna
PostPosted: Fri 02 Jun 2023 8:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1729
The particle ro was used as a marker of perfectivity in past tense but also as a marker of potentiality in subjunctive mood, still so in negative sentences (nár = ná ro). But there are still positive forms like gura (copula) and go raibh (bí), at least in optative use (elsewhere go mbí).
So, go ndearna (< do-ro-gní) makes sense, too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: maith go ndeárna
PostPosted: Fri 02 Jun 2023 2:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 08 Jan 2016 11:37 pm
Posts: 258
Yeah, I thought about the copula (and its path from subjunctive form → future form (through confusion of the two in some contexts) → present form (gur(b))) and about raibh – but didn’t notice it’s in nár too, interesting!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 85 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group