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PostPosted: Fri 29 Nov 2019 5:51 am 
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My best guess is that
"For the Glory of the Raven Queen" == "Do Gloir Bhanríon an Bhfiach Dubh"

But I could be way off. Any thoughts and/or suggestions?


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Nov 2019 3:30 am 
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Vitaee wrote:
My best guess is that
"For the Glory of the Raven Queen" == "Do Gloir Bhanríon an Bhfiach Dubh"

But I could be way off. Any thoughts and/or suggestions?


According to what I could figure out from the Grammar Wizard at teanglann.ie :

Do Ghlóir Bhanríona (de Bhanríon?) an Fhiaigh Dhuibh (Is "de" needed, usable, preferred here?)

but I'm not sure how genitives are governed in this type of situation.

We sort of talked about this on the following post. I don't know if there was ever a consensus given for the genitive of that phrase.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5929&hilit=Raven+Queen


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Nov 2019 10:31 am 
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tiomluasocein wrote:
Vitaee wrote:
My best guess is that
"For the Glory of the Raven Queen" == "Do Gloir Bhanríon an Bhfiach Dubh"

But I could be way off. Any thoughts and/or suggestions?


According to what I could figure out from the Grammar Wizard at teanglann.ie :

Do Ghlóir Bhanríona (de Bhanríon?) an Fhiaigh Dhuibh (Is "de" needed, usable, preferred here?)


Do Ghlóir Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh

You don't use de but you might use do here (compare with glóir do Dhia):

Do Ghlóir do Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh

I'd rather use chun: (compare with "chun glóire Dé agus onóra na hÉireann")

Chun Glóire do Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2019 2:33 am 
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Labhrás wrote:
tiomluasocein wrote:
Vitaee wrote:
My best guess is that
"For the Glory of the Raven Queen" == "Do Gloir Bhanríon an Bhfiach Dubh"

But I could be way off. Any thoughts and/or suggestions?


According to what I could figure out from the Grammar Wizard at teanglann.ie :

Do Ghlóir Bhanríona (de Bhanríon?) an Fhiaigh Dhuibh (Is "de" needed, usable, preferred here?)


Do Ghlóir Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh

You don't use de but you might use do here (compare with glóir do Dhia):

Do Ghlóir do Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh

I'd rather use chun: (compare with "chun glóire Dé agus onóra na hÉireann")

Chun Glóire do Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh


"Chun . . ." never thought of that!

I always thought "de" was the right preposition in this case but I guess that's only for partitive use?

"Do Ghlóir Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh" > Why wouldn't it be ". . . Glóir Bhanríona . . ."?


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PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2019 11:22 pm 
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tiomluasocein wrote:
"Do Ghlóir Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh" > Why wouldn't it be ". . . Glóir Bhanríona . . ."?

Because Banríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh already contains a genitive cementing it as a unit. The only way to form a genitive with that unit is to lenite the first letter.

Once again, as discussed in the following thread viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5929&hilit=Raven+Queen:
Breandán wrote:
I think it comes down to what is meant by "Raven Queen":

1. If it means "the Queen of the Ravens", i.e., a queen who has dominion over all or lots of ravens, then na bhFiach Dubh is the way to go.

2. I know some of you prefer the singular but dominion over a single raven seems unlikely. ;)

3. Another possible interpretation of "the Raven Queen" is that of "the queen who is a raven" (and may or may not have dominion over more than just ravens.) How does one go about translating that and then putting it into the genitive?

an bhanríon fhiaigh dhuibh => beannachtaí na banríona fiaigh duibh ?

Labhrás wrote:
Chun Glóire do Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh


To me this still represents case 2. above, i.e., "For the Glory of the Queen of the Black Raven".

Chun Glóire do Bhanríon na bhFiach Dubh "For the Glory of the Queen of the Black Ravens" (Case 1.)

Chun Glóire do Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh "For the Glory of the Queen of the Black Raven" (Case 2.)

Chun Glóire don Bhanríon Fhiaigh Dhuibh "For the Glory of the Queen who is a Black Raven" (Case 3.) (Here an Bhanríon Fhiaigh Dhuibh works like an dochtúir mná)

Await further input ...

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2019 8:45 am 
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Breandán wrote:
tiomluasocein wrote:
"Do Ghlóir Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh" > Why wouldn't it be ". . . Glóir Bhanríona . . ."?

Because Banríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh already contains a genitive cementing it as a unit. The only way to form a genitive with that unit is to lenite the first letter.


Thank you.

Breandán wrote:
Once again, as discussed in the following thread viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5929&hilit=Raven+Queen:
I think it comes down to what is meant by "Raven Queen":

1. If it means "the Queen of the Ravens", i.e., a queen who has dominion over all or lots of ravens, then na bhFiach Dubh is the way to go.

2. I know some of you prefer the singular but dominion over a single raven seems unlikely. ;)


I remember reading this and thinking that the problem is a grammatical one and not one of meaning per se. In other words, whether or not it is singular or plural, the noun would act as an adjective in this case. Or is this only in English? :)


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PostPosted: Mon 09 Dec 2019 4:55 am 
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tiomluasocein wrote:
Breandán wrote:
tiomluasocein wrote:
"Do Ghlóir Bhanríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh" > Why wouldn't it be ". . . Glóir Bhanríona . . ."?

Because Banríon an Fhiaigh Dhuibh already contains a genitive cementing it as a unit. The only way to form a genitive with that unit is to lenite the first letter.


Thank you.

Breandán wrote:
Once again, as discussed in the following thread viewtopic.php?f=28&t=5929&hilit=Raven+Queen:
I think it comes down to what is meant by "Raven Queen":

1. If it means "the Queen of the Ravens", i.e., a queen who has dominion over all or lots of ravens, then na bhFiach Dubh is the way to go.

2. I know some of you prefer the singular but dominion over a single raven seems unlikely. ;)


I remember reading this and thinking that the problem is a grammatical one and not one of meaning per se. In other words, whether or not it is singular or plural, the noun would act as an adjective in this case. Or is this only in English? :)

Sometimes English has hidden plurals in its adjectival use of nouns, e.g., toy factory is a "factory that makes toys" (obviously not singular "toy") and in some cases it doesn't matter in English, e.g., bus timetable can be a timetable for a single bus or lots of buses.

In contrast to that, it matters in Irish, as the genitive form is different depending on whether the noun is singular or plural and you have to make a decision.

I have made a new (for me) discovery concerning double genitives. They only apply when the one of the genitive constructions is definite. If the compound noun is no definite then the first noun may be change to the genitive case to form a new compound, so beannachtaí na banríona fiaigh duibh is actually okay, because fiaigh duibh is not definite.

But generally it is safer to use a preposition to break up a genitive where possible.

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Mon 09 Dec 2019 2:01 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
I have made a new (for me) discovery concerning double genitives. They only apply when the one of the genitive constructions is definite. If the compound noun is no definite then the first noun may be change to the genitive case to form a new compound, so beannachtaí na banríona fiaigh duibh is actually okay, because fiaigh duibh is not definite.


I'd think, multiple genitives are always possible. They might be very stilted in the modern language but they can't actually be "wrong".
But, of course, they are often avoided, so something like "nominative instead of genitive" or "genitive in function but nominative in form" or shorter "functional genitive" occurs.

And that depends both on "meaning units" and on definiteness.
so the meaning unit banríon fhiaigh dhuibh changes to:

beannachtaí banríon fhiaigh dhuibh (banríon in nominative form because it is indefinite with a following indefinite genitive, i.e. the meaning unit doesn't change at all.)
but
beannachtaí na banríona fiaigh dhúibh (banríon in genitive form because it is definite)
and
beannachtaí bhanríon na bhfiach dubh (banríon in lenited nominative form because it is definite due to a following definite genitive)


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PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec 2019 12:18 pm 
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Thanks for the replies, lads. I am learning more than I bargained for. :LOL:


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