Is it safe to say that one typically uses the modh coinníollach in Irish where one would use the subjunctive in English? For example "If I were rich, I'd buy that house"?

I'm doing a write-up on it (for my own review, as well as for a beginners' page) and I don't want to give a misleading impression.

Redwolf

This is not the answer you wanted, but I would contest whether English actually has a "subjunctive" (Geoff Pullum, co-author of The Cambridge grammar of the English language calls it "irrealis", while his colleague Arnold Zwicky questions whether it makes sense to distinguish another mood here at all) and, moreover, point out that its usage isn't natural to a significant number--and likely an absolute majority--of English-speakers, making it of dubious use in paedagogical text aimed at them.

Some of my audience most definitely do use the subjunctive...that's why I want to be certain before I make that statement.

Redwolf

I'm editing this to correct my response, because I just went to read the Wikipedia article on the subjunctive, and learned something I didn't know, which is that what we call the "subjunctive" is a term which varies in meaning from language to language, and that even the Romance languages handle it differently from one another in some cases.

Before, I said that, in an expression like "If I were rich, I'd buy that house", neither clause is in the subjunctive in English, and that both were conditional expressions, but it turns out that the "If I were" part is considered a kind of future subjunctive, which only some languages have. Red is right, though that in Irish the conditional mood would be used in both clauses, as in "Dá mbeadh saibhreas agam, cheannóinn an teach sin").

Irish does have the same "traditional" subjunctive mood as English, which normally occurs in expressions indicating desire or things like orders, with the subjunctive part of the expressions beginning (in English) with "that". So, for example, the subjunctive expression in English, "Let him buy that house" (in the sense of "I order that he buy that house", not in the sense of granting permission), in Irish would be "Go gceannaí sé an teach sin".

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I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.

"Go gceannaí sé an teach sin" is not an order, just a wish: "May he buy that house"

"Let him buy that house" is rendered in imperative mood: Ceannaíodh sé an teach sin.

Yep, the conditional is now used instead of the subjunctive. However, Irish traditionally had its own tense for use after dá 'if', called the imperfect subjunctive, which is exactly the same as the habitual past. Its use is fairly archaic/ redundant now. Interestingly, the Irish of Ring has a remnant of the imperfect subjunctive still in use; where the second person singular ending -thá is used in the conditional, instead of the more common -fá. This is not surprising since the conditional essentially replaced the imperfect subjunctive.

See: https://corkirish.wordpress.com/verb-co ... n/glanaim/ (bottom of the page )

Cian

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Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

Yes, I shouldn't have said that it was an order in this case, but as I did explain the subjunctive can also be introduced by a desire (in English and Irish), so in this case it's the equivalent of "I desire that he buy that house".

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I'm not a native (or entirely fluent) speaker, so be sure to wait for confirmations/corrections, especially for tattoos.

Thanks! Thought I was going nuts there for a moment (or that my high school English teacher had failed me!)

Redwolf

To save everyone needing to head to Wikipedia, "subjunctive" literally means it's after a conjunction where the clause is subordinate to another one -- ie cannot be understood independently.

Conjunctions like "and", "but" and "because" don't take the subjunctive, because both clauses remain true if taken on their own.
eg
I bought a sandwich because I was hungry.
goes to:
I bought a sandwich. I was hungry.

What we call the "subjunctive" in languages like English and Spanish is, as noted "irrealis", because it's either hypothetical or untrue. Things that are not "irrealis" can appear in subordinate clauses too, but we call the irrealis "subjunctive" because it only appears in that position. (Except when it doesn't -- eg "the Lord be with you" is subjunctive, despite not having a superordinate clause -- but in such cases we consider the other clause to be implied.)

Does Irish have a subjunctive?

The answer is a definite "depends on your point of view". "Go" is the stereotypical subordinating conjunction (to use the technical jargon), but the verb form that follows it is the dependent form, which also occurs in questions and negatives. Historically, the dependent form is a hypothetical/irrealis subjunctive, because the negative and question particles actually incorporate is.

eg An bhfuil tusa go maith? = Is it (that) you be well? (?Es que estés bien?)

So either "dependent" and "subjunctive" are synonymous in terms of Irish grammar, or there is no "subjunctive" per se.

Sorry, I know this is a mind-twisting tangent, but I'm a bit bored today.

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