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 Post subject: fear/fearr
PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep 2011 7:07 am 
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Location: 91 - France
Dia daoibh ar maidin,
I still have a problem with the difference in pronunciation between fear and fearr - on the CD Irish for Beginners (Usborne) I'm hearing far when they say fearr. Generally when you get a double consonant such as an 'n' as opposed to a single 'n' (I almost said shingle) at the end of a word what changes?


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 Post subject: Re: fear/fearr
PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep 2011 9:05 am 
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Location: An Astráil
franc 91 wrote:
Dia daoibh ar maidin,
I still have a problem with the difference in pronunciation between fear and fearr - on the CD Irish for Beginners (Usborne) I'm hearing far when they say fearr. Generally when you get a double consonant such as an 'n' as opposed to a single 'n' (I almost said shingle) at the end of a word what changes?

When there are double consonants following a vowel, the vowel generally behaves as if it had a síneadh fada over it, but since it is not the same in each dialect the spelling has not been changed. This allows the various dialects to handle the situation according to their own specific rules.

For the specific example of fear versus fearr, in Connemara these would be:

fear "man"
F(y)AER
/f´æ:r/

fearr "better"
F(y)AWR
/f´ɑ:r/

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: fear/fearr
PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep 2011 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2011 9:55 am
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Location: 91 - France
Go raibh maith agat - but would there be the same difference in Munster? Apparently some people do pronounce the two in almost the same way.
sin is different to sinn ?


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 Post subject: Re: fear/fearr
PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep 2011 2:45 pm 
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franc 91 wrote:
Go raibh maith agat - but would there be the same difference in Munster? Apparently some people do pronounce the two in almost the same way.
According to Dillon/Ó Cróinín, the distinction between fear and fearr in Munster is in the length of the vowel:

fear "man"
F(y)AER
/f´ar/

fearr "better"
F(y)AAR
/f´a:r/

franc 91 wrote:
sin is different to sinn ?
In the case of sin and sinn, the vowel is the same but the n sound is different (nn is more nasalised (?)). You'd only notice it when there is a vowel following:

sin
SHIN
/sin´/

sinn
SHIN(y)
/siN´/

sin é
SHIN-eh
/sin´e:/

sinn é
SHIN-yeh
/siN´e:/

That is pretty much the same for Conamara and Munster.

For other words with an -inn ending, the i is definitely longer, e.g., tinn CHEEN(y) /t´i:N´/ in Conamara.

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: fear/fearr
PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep 2011 8:39 pm 
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Posts: 937
I would say that the difference is fairly minimal, at least for fear/fearr. The difference Breandán pointed out is right, though.


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 Post subject: Re: fear/fearr
PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep 2011 12:19 am 
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Joined: Fri 02 Sep 2011 11:31 pm
Posts: 249
Location: Navasota, Texas USA
In Ulster Irish I can't hear a bit of difference in either of them. There may be a difference....I just can't hear it and don't think there is one.


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 Post subject: Re: fear/fearr
PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep 2011 12:33 am 
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faberm wrote:
In Ulster Irish I can't hear a bit of difference in either of them. There may be a difference....I just can't hear it and don't think there is one.
Faber, that's a dangerous assumption to make. The Japanese can't hear any difference between an l and an r either, so to them there is no difference between an election and a ... building. "I can't hear it (yet)" is not the same as "it doesn't exist."

For fear/fearr, there is a clear distinction in Conamara, there is a subtler distinction in Munster (among first language Gaeltacht speakers at least), and I am pretty sure there is also one in Ulster albeit different from the other two but we need someone like kokoshneta who is better versed in the subtleties of the Ulster dialect to explain it.

One problem with recordings in textbooks is that the speakers aren't always native, i.e., first language speakers. :S

_________________

WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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 Post subject: Re: fear/fearr
PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep 2011 12:48 am 
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Location: Navasota, Texas USA
Brendan: I certainly understand that. I just can't hear it. Doesn't mean it isn't there. I have friends who are native speakers and I could certainly ask them. I just find that a lot of words that I thought might be different in sound in fact aren't. I wish they WERE. It would sure make it easier for me. I'll send an email to my teacher (a native speaker) I had in Gleann Fhinne in the Gaeltacht and ask him if he says the words differently.


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 Post subject: Re: fear/fearr
PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep 2011 10:33 am 
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In Conamara there is a big difference between both words. Maybe there isn't in the North though.

_________________
___________________________________________________________

It is recommended that you always wait for three to agree on a translation.
I speak Connemara Irish, and my input will often reflect that.
I will do an mp3 file on request for short translations.

___________________________________________________________


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 Post subject: Re: fear/fearr
PostPosted: Wed 07 Sep 2011 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:44 pm
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Location: Santa Cruz Mountains, California, USA
I don't hear a difference between the two...at least among the Ulster native speakers I know...but as Breandán pointed out, it's possible there's a subtle difference I'm not picking up on (I know it was a couple years of learning before I could distinguish between "labhair" and "leabhair"). Ulster does have the tendency to drop off or greatly soften endings, however, so it's also possible there really isn't a difference.

Lacking a native Ulster speaker here, I'm hoping kokoshneta will weigh in on this...he's spent much more time in Donegal than I have, and spoken to way more native speakers.

Redwolf


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