This article (in English) describes more than an anomaly, it sounds like a courtcase waiting to happen. It seems terribly unfair.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/edu ... 97926.html

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Wow...will they not give her reading disability consideration? That would definitely be a factor here.

Redwolf

Reasonable accommodations are given in certain circumstances eg. reader, spelling waiver, use of a latop etc., but my understanding of the article is that the parent feels that her child's oral ability in Irish far outweighs her written (presumably more than reasonable accommodation could adjust), but that an identical oral Irish exam awards points for entrance to college differently depending on whether the student is sitting higher or ordinary level papers.

The real difficulty seems to be whether the student should drop a level, but then have the exam weighted more heavily in favour of the written (her weaker element) thus not allowing her to be justly awarded for her oral ability in the language. It's ironic that they keep claiming that it's more important to be able to speak Irish than read/write it, but then have a structure which rewards the higher level students considerably more than ordinary level students (who actually should have a better grasp of the reading/wrting aspect anyway).

Something else that I think I have heard is that for the Modern European language oral exam, although the students sit the same exam, marks are redistributed later to ensure that students at higher and ordinary level ultimately receive a consistent number of points relative to their level. Scooby would probably have a much better understanding of all of this than I do.

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It is true that the Higher and Ordinary Level students do exactly the same oral exam. On the face of it, this is unfair. Personally, I'd like to see this changed. As an aside, the parent who wrote the letter says that the examiner may not ask which level a student is doing. I was never given this instruction and I’ve been an examiner for quite a few years now. However, I could not take such information into account anyway, as everyone is meant to be marked the same way. Also, I would never ask the question as I would not like to give the impression to a Higher Level student that I thought he/she was Ordinary Level as I might upset the student or destroy his/her confidence.

The problem as I understand it is that the oral exam which takes place a couple of months before the written exam, depending on when Easter falls, would require students to state which level they were going to take, if the situation as it stands were to be changed. This means that students would have to be marked as Higher or Ordinary Level students, thus taking away their current option of changing levels on the day in the June exams. In other words, they would have to declare what level they were taking far earlier than at present.

Irish is somewhat different from other language subjects, as students quite often get cold feet as they approach their exams and quite a number drop from Higher Level over the course of the two-year senior cycle as the difficulty of Higher Level (and the huge change in standard from Junior Cert) becomes apparent to them.

It’s my job as a teacher to encourage them to stick it out at Higher Level, if they have the ability. I would not like students to have to declare they were going to sit Higher Level in March or April. I feel that this would force quite a number of students who are ‘on the fence’ about Higher/Ordinary to drop to Ordinary Level as it is sometimes only in the last few months that the pieces of the jigsaw come together and for a certain number of students, their ability to tackle the Higher Level paper becomes apparent. Sometimes this is simply because they decide to do some real study in those last few months.

This year I will have an Ordinary Level Leaving Cert class. I see the difficulty that the parent mentions in her letter. I tell my students (because I believe it to be true) that when the Oral marks are added to the marks for the written papers, some manipulation of the marks takes place to make up for the fact that are were assessed in the same manner as the Higher Level students in the oral exam. How do I know this? Well, I don’t! But I do know that even when the written papers are being corrected, there is constant manipulation of the marking scheme to ensure that the correct number of A, B, C grades etc are achieved. Individual examiners correct 20 exam papers and forward the numbers of each grade to their superiors. They do this again after every 50 or 100 papers they mark. In that way an overall picture of the grades country-wide emerges and it is possible (and it has certainly happened) that correctors are told to change their marking schemes in order to have the right amounts of each grade. This may seem quite wrong, but sometimes a question is asked that almost nobody in the country can answer because it’s overly-difficult or because the answer isn’t clear enough on the tape – and this only becomes apparent as the answer papers are examined. It makes sense to decrease the marks for that question and increase marks elsewhere.

Sometimes an entire paper may be too hard. What if one year nobody in the country is getting an A – can the standard have gone down so much in one year? It’s more likely that the paper is too hard or that the marking scheme is unrealistic (requiring a sentence as an answer when one word is adequate, for example).

So, if they are willing to manipulate the marks for the written papers, why on earth would they allow a flaw in the system to rob vast numbers of Ordinary Level students of the grades they deserve. I just don’t believe that happens, and the ‘grade inflation’ over the last number of years indicates that students are getting at least the marks they deserve at Ordinary Level (and Higher Level too). I generally know my students and their abilities, and I think the grades they have achieved over the last few years have been generous to say the least. Only one of my students has failed in over 18 years of teaching – and he was a constant absentee. About 7 or 8 years ago (I think), approx 25% of Ordinary Level students were failing nationwide. Now it’s in single digits, around 6 or 7% if I remember correctly.

Having said all the above, as an examiner I'd prefer to be examining students at the correct level appropriate to their ability. It makes sense on the day for everyone. (It torture for the examiner to be asking question after question with little or no response, even when you miming and trying every other trick in the book to help students along!) And 20 picture sequences are just too much for Ordinary Level students to learn - and yes, they do learn stuff off because a lot of them would have no chance otherwise. They actually do learn some vocabulary from this approach, but the number is picture sequences is too great.

And you claim to be a man of few words!!!

I understand the difficulty of students having to decide too early (although presumably Foundation level students are doing precisely that), and I also accept the reorganising the grades to fit the bell curve occurs in all subjects.

As far as I know, students have no access to the oral results breakdown if they wish to view their script after the exam. Although I cannot know for sure, of course, I would be willing to bet (and I'm not the gambling type) that manipulation of results to fit the bell curve does not include the oral aspect of the exam. I believe there is a formal realignment in Modern European languages to take into account the level that was sat in June (ie nothing to do with bell curves), but no such mechanism with Irish. Why is there not a similar arrangement with Gaeilge?

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I'd bet the opposite! But in truth, I just don't know. If the current setup is having a negative effect on the marks of Ordinary Level students, because they are treated the same as Higher Level students for the oral exam, then this year we should see a magnification of that negative effect given that the oral is now, for the first time, worth 40% instead of 25%.

Not necessarily, it could just be that the non-oral parts are bumped for the bell curve, but that those most proficient at the oral aspect do not benefit from the same bumping. We will probably never know.

However, I have asked someone within the DES about the recalculating of the oral marks when combining the figures to take higher or ordinary level status into account (as the examiner does not know level at the time of examining) and I am assured that there is no such mechanism to do it. I didn't ask about the bell curve bumping as I completely agree with you that that happens.

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Fair enough. I know that the bell curve thing happens with the written papers as I have seen the adjustments made in the course of correcting. I remember that this manipulation of grades was denied on the RTÉ news by a spokesperson for the Dept of Ed a few years back. An outright lie as far as I am concerned.

Agree with all!

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That's a great record! Now I know who to come to for advice when it comes to how Irish should be taught - if that is OK. I will have to read over this thread quite a few times before I can say I understand it; but I have seen some worried faces with this changeover of emphasis to the orals. I have not read the initial article linked to on this thread yet, but will look forward to seeing it tomorrow.
I have read that article. It is something to ponder all right! I have assisted students with the orals at both levels; it is indeed difficult to see why the same 'performance' can be marked so differently!

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Bí cinnte de go nglacfaidh triúr le gach aistriúchán a thabharfar.
Be sure to get three in agreement with a translation given.