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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 3:09 am 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
Weren't surnames introduced/forced by the English?

The Irish traditional naming is "John, son of Michael, grandson of Martin etc"
Nan Tom Taimín;
Bríd Choilimín Antaine;


I've read that Gaelic surnames predate surnames in England, for example. i think Ireland was one of the first places in Europe to adopt fixed hereditary family names. The surname Ó Cleirigh is attested as early as the ninth century, if I remember correctly. Ó Briain is also very old, no doubt connected to Brian Bóruma/Bóramha.

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 11:50 am 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
Weren't surnames introduced/forced by the English?

The Irish traditional naming is "John, son of Michael, grandson of Martin etc"
Nan Tom Taimín;
Bríd Choilimín Antaine;


Was that all over Ireland, or just in the West? (In Leitrim double barreling the fist name was common)

A name like Ó Flaitheartha or Ó Néill or Mac Giolla Íosa would have been the sept name then? So people were forced to take a sept or tribal name over the more fluid colloquial style?

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 12:43 pm 
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http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy ... rnames.pdf

A Survey of Irish Surnames 1992-97
Sean J Murphy Studies in Irish Genealogy and Heraldry


The dates they came into being:
Quote:
Smyth’s analysis of the Annals of Ulster and Inisfallen shows that less than 4% of
surnames had come into existence before 970, about 12-15% originated between 970-
1019, about 25-28% between 1020-1069, about 30-33% between 1070-1120 and about
23-25% between 1120-69.Paucity of records makes it harder to indicate the rate at
which the common people adopted hereditary second names in Ireland, but MacLysaght
has observed that as late as the seventeenth century there were still numbers of people
among the lower orders who did not use hereditary surnames.



Some flow from the one ancestor, others from different people of the same name:
Quote:
Surnames can best be understood firstly by dividing them into two main classes,
monogenetic and polygenetic. Monogenetic surnames have a single origin from one
individual or family, possible examples being Faherty or Asquith, while polygenetic
surnames arose independently in different places and at different times, examples being
Murphy or Smith.... for example Murphy, the most common surname in Ireland,
derives from three distinct and unrelated Ó Murchadha septs which arose in Cork,
Roscommon and Wexford, as well as from a fourth Mac Murchadha sept associated
with Tyrone and later Armagh.



Collective names like Uíbh Fhailigh:
Quote:
As was the case in other ancient societies, the inhabitants of Ireland in early
times were known by one, personal name, eg, Art, Conn or Niall, as surnames had yet to
evolve. It is true that the Irish had from a remote period a system of collective or
‘people-names’. These names were used in the plural and referred to the whole
population group, or probably more accurately, to its ruling dynastic elite or aristocracy.



Collective or sept name vs. family name:
Quote:
Woulfe has pointed out that many of these ancient names are similar in form to modern family names, and he cautioned against confusing them. Thus, for example, Muintear Ifearnáin is the ancient people-name of the O’Quins of Thomond and the family name of the O’Heffernans of Owney, while Clann Dálaigh is the people-name of the O’Donnells of Tirconnell and should not be taken as only referring to the surname Daly.



Sept as a better term than clan:
Quote:
Given the high profile of Irish ‘clans’, it is worthwhile noting that MacLysaght
specifically stated that he avoided the term ‘clan’ in the Irish context, because ‘its use
might imply the existence in Ireland of a clan system like that so highly developed in
Scotland, which in fact we never had in this country’. MacLysaght preferred instead to
use the term ‘sept’, which he defined as a ‘collective term describing a group of persons
who, or whose immediate and known ancestors, bore a common surname and inhabited
the same locality’



'Temporary' surnames:
Quote:
From an early period a system of temporary patronymics was in use, whereby Mac was fixed to the genitive case of thefather’s name, or Ua or Ó to that of the grandfather, eg, Cormac Mac Airt, Laoghaire Mac Néill, and so on. Yet these second names were not surnames in the modern sense of the term, in that they were not fixed or hereditary or common to all members of a
family, and they ceased to be used when the individual so described died.



Origin or just function as a sept indicator:
Quote:
English administrators and planters during the Tudor period displayed particular
hostility to the Irish use of ‘Mac’ and ‘O’ prefixes.... However, it is important to note that what was involved here was not opposition to Gaelic surnames as such, but to the practice of the heads of
septs using their surnames as chiefly titles, for example, O Neill, Mac Carthy Mór, this
being interpreted as a sign of rejection of English authority



And one last side point about the Normans and their power:
Quote:
Anglo-Norman Surnames
Given the historical prominence of families bearing Anglo-Norman surnames,
these are perhaps not of such a high frequency as might be expected. It may be a
surprise to find that, as shown in Table 6, there are only five pure Anglo-Norman
surnames in the top hundred, the highest Burke and Fitzgerald being at 17 and 43
respectively, with a well known name such as Butler outside the top 100. It would be
fair to conclude that the impact of the Anglo-Normans in Ireland has been
disproportionate to their numbers.


Quote:

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 1:36 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
Weren't surnames introduced/forced by the English?

The Irish traditional naming is "John, son of Michael, grandson of Martin etc"
Nan Tom Taimín;
Bríd Choilimín Antaine;

This is funny. If I remember right we actually had surnames before anybody else, but then when the Gaelic clan system fell apart we stopped using them, so that by the 1901 census several people no longer had surnames. I know one of my ancestors had to use his wife's surname in the 1901 census as he had no knowledge of his own, he was just Tomás Sheáin.

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 5:18 pm 
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If you look at the WikiPedia page that has a list of the people who held the title Ollam Érenn you can see the trend occurring over time that Jay Bee mentions. It's pretty interesting to see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Ollam_of_Ireland

In 545 a conscious decision was made to limit the holders of the title of Ollam to members of certain families and by the end of the 10th century you start to see "Ua" showing up much more and by the 11th it is nearly completely ubiquitous.


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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 5:52 pm 
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SO 'Ua' comes from 'Ollamh'?

I thought it was related to Ó and Uí.

I must look into this

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 5:59 pm 
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Ó and Ua are said to be the same in the books.

Does anyone know if they fell together due to sound changes or grammar changes?

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 8:06 pm 
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Jay Bee wrote:
SO 'Ua' comes from 'Ollamh'?

I thought it was related to Ó and Uí.

I must look into this


No, that's not what I meant. Just that it seems to mark the name as an actual surname rather than what can originally be taken as a more generic patronym like mac X with the literal meaning of "son of X".


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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2013 12:43 am 
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