It is currently Tue 05 May 2026 3:46 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun 07 Aug 2022 3:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm
Posts: 1313
'Sí an tsráid is cúinge ar an mbaile í
or
'Sí an tsráid í is cúinge ar an mbaile
are equally correct here. Note ar an mbaile not sa bhaile.

_________________
The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun 14 Aug 2022 5:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri 22 Jan 2021 4:24 pm
Posts: 148
Ah, I see! Go raibh míle maith agat, a Lon Dubh!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 29 Aug 2022 9:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1971
An Lon Dubh wrote:
'Sí an tsráid is cúinge ar an mbaile í
or
'Sí an tsráid í is cúinge ar an mbaile
are equally correct here. Note ar an mbaile not sa bhaile.


According to C. Ó Cadhlaigh in "Ceart na Gaedhilge" (a small and old but very recommendable book about Irish syntax), the article can be omitted in the former but not in the latter:

Is í sráid is cúinge ar an mbaile í.
Is í an tsráid í is cúinge ar an mbaile.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 30 Aug 2022 11:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1727
Labhrás wrote:
According to C. Ó Cadhlaigh in "Ceart na Gaedhilge" (a small and old but very recommendable book about Irish syntax), the article can be omitted in the former but not in the latter:

Is í sráid is cúinge ar an mbaile í.
Is í an tsráid í is cúinge ar an mbaile.

Cormac Ó Cadhla was not a native speaker of Irish, but an L2 speaker, albeit with an expert command of the language and a chair at university.
Peadar Ua Laoghaire wrote "Isé rud é is éagsamhlaíghe agus is tuathalaíghe agus is mó neamhthuisgint d'ár airígheas riamh".
The reason for the dropping of the article is that the predicate is contextually defined (the is éagsamhlaí etc clause defines it). I explain this in my article on the definite article published in Éigse.
Now Ó Cadhla's rule might relate to some other people's Irish other than Ua Laoghaire's, as there is and was always variation among native speakers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 30 Aug 2022 11:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2014 10:03 pm
Posts: 522
Location: SAM
djwebb2021 wrote:
Now Ó Cadhla's rule might relate to some other people's Irish other than Ua Laoghaire's, as there is and was always variation among native speakers.



Part of me doubts this. Him and Ó Nuallain both heavily based all their books on trying to make sense of everything Ua Laoghaire (or Keating too, in the sense of Ó Nuallain) wrote. It's actually part of why I really dislike them, even though they'd probably be helpful to my understanding of Irish; they're heavily biased towards the idiosyncrasies of one or two people (none of who use the dialect I'm focusing on), but they play it off as if this is how True Irish should be.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 30 Aug 2022 1:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1727
galaxyrocker wrote:
djwebb2021 wrote:
Now Ó Cadhla's rule might relate to some other people's Irish other than Ua Laoghaire's, as there is and was always variation among native speakers.



Part of me doubts this. Him and Ó Nuallain both heavily based all their books on trying to make sense of everything Ua Laoghaire (or Keating too, in the sense of Ó Nuallain) wrote. It's actually part of why I really dislike them, even though they'd probably be helpful to my understanding of Irish; they're heavily biased towards the idiosyncrasies of one or two people (none of who use the dialect I'm focusing on), but they play it off as if this is how True Irish should be.


Well Ua Laoghaire is the most prolific writer in any modern Irish dialect, and the Cork dialect was a continuation of the 18th century literary tradition in a way that the Ulster and Connacht dialects are not. Of course from a descriptivist view, all dialects are equal and any can form the standard, but the claims made for Muskerry are correctly made. The CO approach focuses on the Irish of precisely ZERO native speakers.

In any case, Cormac Ó Cadhla's statement on the copula here is at variance with Ua Laoghaire's usage.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 30 Aug 2022 4:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2014 10:03 pm
Posts: 522
Location: SAM
djwebb2021 wrote:
Well Ua Laoghaire is the most prolific writer in any modern Irish dialect, and the Cork dialect was a continuation of the 18th century literary tradition in a way that the Ulster and Connacht dialects are not. Of course from a descriptivist view, all dialects are equal and any can form the standard, but the claims made for Muskerry are correctly made. The CO approach focuses on the Irish of precisely ZERO native speakers.



Was he the most prolific? Máire wrote quite a lot, and I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote more than PUL overall.

But, it is still quite annoying when they say "This is the only correct way" and give no attention to the other dialects, or even consider them. Specifically when those dialects are (and even were at that time!) more widely spoken. Simply because PUL had written a lot when they started writing. As I said, it sometimes seems like they're just trying to shoehorn everything that came out of PUL's pen into a formula, some of which seem, to me, to require some really awkward explanations to make it fit their system (speaking mostly of Ó Nualain here).

But, that's just my opinion of them; it's also why I don't rely on them or recommend them to anyone not focusing on Munster Irish (or even more specifically on Muskerry Irish)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 30 Aug 2022 5:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat 03 May 2014 4:01 pm
Posts: 1971
djwebb2021 wrote:
Labhrás wrote:
According to C. Ó Cadhlaigh in "Ceart na Gaedhilge" (a small and old but very recommendable book about Irish syntax), the article can be omitted in the former but not in the latter:

Is í sráid is cúinge ar an mbaile í.
Is í an tsráid í is cúinge ar an mbaile.

Cormac Ó Cadhla was not a native speaker of Irish, but an L2 speaker, albeit with an expert command of the language and a chair at university.
Peadar Ua Laoghaire wrote "Isé rud é is éagsamhlaíghe agus is tuathalaíghe agus is mó neamhthuisgint d'ár airígheas riamh".
The reason for the dropping of the article is that the predicate is contextually defined (the is éagsamhlaí etc clause defines it). I explain this in my article on the definite article published in Éigse.
Now Ó Cadhla's rule might relate to some other people's Irish other than Ua Laoghaire's, as there is and was always variation among native speakers.


In pseudo-clefts (a somewhat different construction), "is é rud é" is very common as an introduction and so probably affects other uses. It could perhaps be a kind of contamination in a normal identification sentence.
Do you know of examples with other nouns than "rud" or "duine"?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue 30 Aug 2022 6:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am
Posts: 1727
Yes: Isé galar é is measa a bhí ar aon Chríosdaidhe riamh.

In my published article on the article, I wrote:
Quote:
The examples above show that where a noun is contextually defined, the article need not be given. My focus is on Muskerry Irish, but it is worth noting that Ó Searcaigh states that “in the spoken language of the North and West the omission of the article is found only before rud, ‘a thing’” (“Some Uses and Omissions of the Article in Irish”, p242).

So, as you note, Labhrás, although this is used with all nouns in Ua Laoghaire's Irish, it is a recognised thing that in Northern and Western dialects, this usage is only found with rud.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed 31 Aug 2022 12:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm
Posts: 1313
galaxyrocker wrote:
But, it is still quite annoying when they say "This is the only correct way" and give no attention to the other dialects, or even consider them. Specifically when those dialects are (and even were at that time!) more widely spoken. Simply because PUL had written a lot when they started writing. As I said, it sometimes seems like they're just trying to shoehorn everything that came out of PUL's pen into a formula, some of which seem, to me, to require some really awkward explanations to make it fit their system (speaking mostly of Ó Nualain here).

Do you have an example? Most of what Ó Nualláin's grammar says seems fairly natural to me, i.e. the explanations don't seem like that much of a stretch.

Regarding dialect, I thought they were fairly middle of the road. For example Ó Nualláin's section about the copula doesn't point out Munster specific features. Are there Ulster or Connacht forms that they label as incorrect, claiming only the Munster form is right? Even in the cases where they explicitly invoke a rare type of sentence from Ua Laoghaire, it's often as a preamble to explain a type of sentence common in 19th century Irish in general. I'm willing to be corrected here, it's about a year since I read through them, so I probably don't remember everything. Most of the cases where they say something is wrong that I remember were about learner errors.

_________________
The dialect I use is Cork Irish.
Ar sgáth a chéile a mhairid na daoine, lag agus láidir, uasal is íseal


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 164 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group