Tadhg vs Tadgh

djwebb2021 · **Joined:** Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am **Posts:** 1725

Caoilte wrote:

⦁ Examples of words ending with 'adh': geimhreadh, samhradh, conradh, ionradh (incursion, invasion); also verbal nouns e.g. bualadh, ceapadh, cleachtadh, etc.

⦁ Other examples ending with broad 'dh' (there seem to be very few examples where word-final broad 'dh' is not preceded by short 'a'): ádh; modh, aodh (inflammation); nódh (= nua); mudh (literary word, meaning 'destroy');

I've no idea how word-final broad gh should be pronounced in Munster or any other dialect, although there seem to be very few examples of such words.

⦁ Examples ending with broad 'gh': agh: (literary word, meaning 'cow', 'ox'); ágh (battle, contest); blogh (fragment (both noun and verb)); ógh (virgin), lógh (= luach); Lugh (the pagan god); súgh (=sú)

Caoilte, I expect you already know. But the words you cited are pronounced: gíre, samhra, cúra (cunara among those who don't know the traditional), úra (unara among those who don't know the tradition), buala, ceapa, cleachta, á, mó, ao, nó, (see note on mudh below), /əɪ/, á, bló, ó, ló, lú, sú.

There will be very few examples of mudh- in any form of Irish. Maybe it is this;
Present of mudh: múim, múnn sé
Future of mudh: múhad, múhaidh sé
Preterite: do mhús, do mhúís, do mhúig sé (audible g), do mhúmair, do mhúúir, do mhúdar
Conditional: do mhúhainn, do mhúfá
Past habitual: do mhúinn, do mhúthá
Imperative: múig, pl: múig/múigis
Verbal noun: mú
Verbal adjective múite

This then aligns with crudhaim/cruidhim in my verb table at https://corkirish.wordpress.com/verb-conjugation/cruim/ However, I have not located a single instance of this word being used anywhere, and I suggest it is not literary, but entirely obsolete.

Caoilte · **Joined:** Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm **Posts:** 168

djwebb2021 wrote:

A Chaoilte, tá a lán Gaelainne agat gan aon dabht. Ní thuigim cad chuige go bhfuileann tú ag rá ná fuil.

Go raibh maith agat. Tá sé i bhfad níos éasca í a scríobh ná a labhairt, is dócha.

djwebb2021 wrote:

'Sé 'n rud go ndeirinn thuas gur mar /təɪg/ adeirthear é i Múscraí, bíodh go bhfuil /taig/ le fáil in áiteannaibh eile. Cailíocht an chéad ghutha sa bhfocal do bhí i gceist agam.

Tuigim anois thú.

Caoilte · **Joined:** Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm **Posts:** 168

djwebb2021 wrote:

Caoilte wrote:

Caoilte, I expect you already know. But the words you cited are pronounced: gíre, samhra, cúra (cunara among those who don't know the traditional), úra (unara among those who don't know the tradition), buala, ceapa, cleachta, á, mó, ao, nó, (see note on mudh below), /əɪ/, á, bló, ó, ló, lú, sú.

There will be very few examples of mudh- in any form of Irish. Maybe it is this;
Present of mudh: múim, múnn sé
Future of mudh: múhad, múhaidh sé
Preterite: do mhús, do mhúís, do mhúig sé (audible g), do mhúmair, do mhúúir, do mhúdar
Conditional: do mhúhainn, do mhúfá
Past habitual: do mhúinn, do mhúthá
Imperative: múig, pl: múig/múigis
Verbal noun: mú
Verbal adjective múite

This then aligns with crudhaim/cruidhim in my verb table at https://corkirish.wordpress.com/verb-conjugation/cruim/ However, I have not located a single instance of this word being used anywhere, and I suggest it is not literary, but entirely obsolete.

Thanks for the information. I was unsure about the words ending in 'gh'.

So you're the man behind the CorkIrish website. I came across it a little over a year ago. Although I didn't have time to explore it in great detail, I found it to be very impressive. There is some brilliant information on it and I really liked the degree of analysis it goes into. Congratulations on an outstanding website.

Bríd Mhór · **Joined:** Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm **Posts:** 2985

Caoilte wrote:

Bríd Mhór wrote:

Caoilte wrote:

I always assumed that 'Tadhg' was the correct spelling of the personal male name and that 'Tadgh' was a flagrant misspelling, arising from an ignorance of Irish orthography. But is there any chance that 'Tadgh' is also correct, after all?

I'd pronounce it as the English word "thigh" (upper part of your leg) and then IG sound at the end.

I've heard Irish broad 't' being described as being midway between English 't' and English 'th' i.e. tip of tongue is slightly forward in mouth but not as far forward as in English 'th'. I reckon this is a helpful way of looking at it from the point of view of a native English speaker.

But I find it interesting that you describe Irish broad ''t' as being pronounced like English 'th'. My understanding is that when the English language first came in, Irish speakers realised English 'th' as Irish broad 't' when speaking English, since Irish broad 't' was closer to English 'th' than Irish slender 't' was. Irish slender 't' was then used for English 't' (I think). THis practice might be deemed an older style of Hiberno-English.

Eventually, Irish people generally ended up mastering the English 't' sound but, due to some quirk unknown to me, Irish broad 't' generally stopped being used to represent English 'th' and instead English 't' started to be used, thus effecting a phoneme merger. This might be deemed a newer Hiberno-English.

I notice this where I come from, with some (probably a minority of) older more-conservative English speakers using Irish broad 't' to represent English 'th' (thus maintaining the phoneme distinction), but with everyone else pronouncing it as English 't'. Possibly the same conservative speakers use Irish slender 't' for English 't' but I can't say for sure off hand.

My guess is that this phenomonen of using Irish broad 't' for English 'th' is only observable in people who come from areas that were Irish speaking in the relatively recent past or that are currently Irish speaking. Hence my guess as to why you equate Irish broad 't' with English 'th'.

That's very interesting. I'm a Southern Conamara native speaker.

This is me saying Tadhg on Forvo (I'm Bríd Eilís).
It sounds more like the English Th to me rather than a hard T.

https://forvo.com/word/tadhg/#ga

Conchur is, as far as I know, a Munster native.
you can ignore the other two speakers.

Caoilte · **Joined:** Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm **Posts:** 168

Bríd Mhór wrote:

That's very interesting. I'm a Southern Conamara native speaker.

This is me saying Tadhg on Forvo (I'm Bríd Eilís).
It sounds more like the English Th to me rather than a hard T.

https://forvo.com/word/tadhg/#ga

Conchur is, as far as I know, a Munster native.
you can ignore the other two speakers.

Bríd, interesting website. That's a great resource for people trying to master pronunciation.

The way both yourself and Conchúr pronounce the 't' is clearly broad 't' to me (admittedly broad 't' does sound fairly close to English 'th'). I think there is a very slight difference in the quality of the subsequent vowel between the two of ye, which is presumably down to dialect.

Regarding the 'g' sound at the end, Conchúr pronounces it in a way that seems unmistakenly broad 'g' to my ears, whereas I would nearly have put your 'g' sound (as well as the fourth speaker's 'g' sound) down as a slender 'g' i.e. as if spelt 'Taidhg'. But maybe my ears aren't trained properly, with me not being a native speaker. Or maybe it's due to Conchúr being from Kerry (at least that's how he sounds from listening to some of his other recordings), which is where i'm from too.

But what struck me was the second speaker. He didn't pronounce the 'g' sound at all, although, arguably, there seems to be a hint of the glide vowel that would precede it. So my guess is that the recording got cut off too early.

Caoilte · **Joined:** Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm **Posts:** 168

There are also some surnames based on 'Tadhg':

Mac Taidhg (anglicised as Teague and McTeague)
Mac Thaidhg (anglicised as McKeag, McKeague, Keag, Keague)
Ó Tadhgáin (anglicised as Teegan)

But the most interesting one is Ó Taidhg, which has curiously been anglicised as Tighe (pronounced like English 'tie'). (According to De Bhulbh, there were a number of septs of this name, including in Down, Wicklow, Roscomman Clare, thus representing a good spread across the country.) The absence of a 'g' sound in the English pronunciation, as well as the inclusion of 'gh' in the English spelling, might lend support to Tadgh as being a legitimate spelling.

Nonetheless, I am not convinced and I would still guess that 'Tadgh' is completely incorrect.

djwebb2021 · **Joined:** Thu 27 May 2021 3:22 am **Posts:** 1725

Caoilte, BrídEilís, Conchúr and CArmanach are the only 3 speakers on Forvo worth listening to. All the others are very poor learners.

Caoilte · **Joined:** Sat 31 Jul 2021 8:03 pm **Posts:** 168

djwebb2021 wrote:

Caoilte, BrídEilís, Conchúr and CArmanach are the only 3 speakers on Forvo worth listening to. All the others are very poor learners.

Djwebb, thanks for the tip.

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