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PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec 2013 6:25 pm 
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Bríd Mhór wrote:
"eatarainn agus sibh" - also sounds odd. Even in English is "us and you" correct? If 3 or more are in a group it automatically becomes "us". Maybe I'm not understanding that.

Maybe it'd've felt more natural with iad in place of sibh.

Eg "that's the difference between us and them".

Or maybe something without a pronoun in the second position:
"There's a thousand miles between us and our parents."

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec 2013 6:57 pm 
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In older forms of Irish you could say (taking Bríd's phrase):

Eadram féin is tú féin.

instead of the modern:

Idir mé féin is tú féin.

so you could combine the first pronoun mentioned with idir.

Although this was not the most common use of these forms of idir. Idir used to also convey "to me/you/e.t.c.", like "leave it to me". Acallam na Senórach (~1160) has:

Léig eadram agus Fianna Éireann = Leave the warriors of Ireland to me.

A Irish biography of Guy of Warwick (~1420) has:
Lig eadram-sa is an cath = Leave the battle to me.

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec 2013 8:47 pm 
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Slightly off topic, but imagine if the current process of personal pronouns being weakened after verbs were to continue (bíonn mé /bi:onm'e/) we might end up with bíonnime then bíoimm then bímm (tense final slender m).

And as this happens for all three temporal tenses you might see chuaim, téimm, rachaim; chuat, téannt, rachat etc arise.

Preposiional pronouns would post-positional elements (tá leabhar [ag]am in future maybe thá liór'm) which might then become case endings (but also marked for person!)

Constructions with the copula (as in is breá liom X, might harden to spráim, sprát, spráis, spráidh?, spráinn, spráibh, spráó) and become backworked to cognitive verbs

Devoicing in the middle of verb in the future and conditional would lead to voiceless l, n, r, and ng sounds (via the likes of buailfidh mé) and in a monoglot, pre-written land with 4-way constrasts, you'd end up with 8 ls, 8 ns and up to 6 rs if trilling was kept phonemic!

It's only conjecture, but it does keep one open to just a taste of the possibilities of grammar

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec 2013 9:22 pm 
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Jay Bee wrote:
Slightly off topic, but imagine if the current process of personal pronouns being weakened after verbs were to continue (bíonn mé /bi:onm'e/) we might end up with bíonnime then bíoimm then bímm (tense final slender m).

And as this happens for all three temporal tenses you might see chuaim, téimm, rachaim; chuat, téannt, rachat etc arise.


Heavens above!

If you carried on like that bíonn mé might become bím, tá mé might become táim, glanann mé might become glanaim, and who knows what trouble would result?

And if raghaimíd became ragham - Oh I'm having a fit of the vapours!


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PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec 2013 9:47 pm 
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Synthetic Irish :panic: !!!! :??:

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec 2013 10:37 pm 
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Quote:
If you carried on like that bíonn mé might become bím, tá mé might become táim, glanann mé might become glanaim, and who knows what trouble would result?

And if raghaimíd became ragham - Oh I'm having a fit of the vapours!


no, glanaim doesn't come from glanann mé, glanaim is "older" ; and ragham is older than raghaimíd too as far as I know, and they are different etymologically.

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec 2013 10:43 pm 
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Lughaidh wrote:
If you carried on like that bíonn mé might become bím


If you and might mean I'm talking conjecturally, meaning not historically.

I was just waxing on how in a hypothetical scenario, Irish might cycle back to being more inflective on it's verbs and nouns because I hear native speakers say not */b'i:oN m'e:/ but as if it's bionn'me, so if that continued over time, the verb might become synthetic again, and as people do this for the past and the future, in such a situation, you might see the same synthetic endings for the past, present (habitual) and future forms

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec 2013 10:48 pm 
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Quote:
because I hear native speakers say not */b'i:oN m'e:/ but as if it's bionn'me,


[bʲiːm(ʲ)] and [ˈbʲiːnmʲa], the o is just there to show the -nn is normally broad.

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PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec 2013 10:53 pm 
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I know that, it's only a glide

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PostPosted: Sat 21 Dec 2013 1:16 am 
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Jay Bee wrote:
I was just waxing on how in a hypothetical scenario, Irish might cycle back to being more inflective on it's verbs and nouns because I hear native speakers say not */b'i:oN m'e:/ but as if it's bionn'me, so if that continued over time, the verb might become synthetic again, and as people do this for the past and the future, in such a situation, you might see the same synthetic endings for the past, present (habitual) and future forms

Fair enough, but it's extremely uncommon for lexical words to get any stress anyway. Who says /h'i:z k'ʌmɪŋ/ rather than /hizk'ʌmɪŋ/ anyway?

(NB: I'm aware that English has no short /i/ according to the textbooks, but as everyone I know makes a distinction between /i/ and /ɪ, I don't care what the books say. /hɪk'ʌmɪŋ/ would be "his coming", and seriously, does anyone really pronounce "he's coming" and "his coming" the same?)

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