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PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec 2013 7:41 pm 
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http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?tr ... temID=3726

A new survey indicates that Gaeltacht and urban Irish speakers are finding each other increasingly more difficult to understand.

Is the author on here?

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec 2013 8:11 pm 
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its a fairly old survey, seen this years ago.

Its not really that surprising given that the people you are learning Irish from are often far from fluent themselves.

Its a bit like a game of Chinese whispers, some stuff will get lost as its past along from the original source.

I remember meeting a bunch of Italian school teachers in Ireland trying to improve their English. They could hardly string a sentence together , I always wondered about the hundreds of poor student they were supposedly teaching.

A teacher of any subject should really be fully competent in it.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec 2013 8:20 pm 
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Dáithí Mac Giolla. wrote:
its a fairly old survey, seen this years ago.

Its not really that surprising given that the people you are learning Irish from are often far from fluent themselves.

Its a bit like a game of Chinese whispers, some stuff will get lost as its past along from the original source.

I remember meeting a bunch of Italian school teachers in Ireland trying to improve their English. They could hardly string a sentence together , I always wondered about the hundreds of poor student they were supposedly teaching.

A teacher of any subject should really be fully competent in it.


"Urban Irish" isn't a dialect of Irish - it's just incorrect Irish. Just like the Dublin dialect of French, for example - who would claim that French as learned in Dublin is equivalent to proper French, and should even be transmitted to children? It's time to cancel all plans to treble the number of speakers and concentrate on the Gaeltacht ONLY. Generating reams of nonsense is not saving the language at all.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec 2013 8:27 pm 
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or perhaps teaching people Irish as its spoken. i.e. by native speakers.

Just because something isint being done properly doesn't mean one should give up on it.

If people want to learn Irish fine, just set the standard as you should with any language.

The same could go for the teaching of all languages in the Irish education system .


On another note im curious where they got the figure of 250,000 out of. I have never seen any rational behind it, just a number plucked from thin air, with no description of who these people will be, where they will live, WHY they will speak Irish.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec 2013 8:46 pm 
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The whole Irish language plan would have a bit more(some) credibility , if they could show how they were going to achieve any of this .

e.g.- They could show how in a certain area, lets say the electoral division of Barna

How many people they think can and could speak the Language, and methodology
Methods they that will increase the number of able speakers along with how the methods work.
Methods which will encourage more use in social functions, and again how and why they would work.
Projections of the results, with examples from other country's or based on research .
Cost analysis.
All these things would provide some hope that a half logical policy would be implemented.

But im afraid its yet another white wash. Its full of vague ideas and no substance. The number of 250,000 probably just sounded nice.

They keep talking about a smart economy/ knowledge economy.
But half the country doesn't even have reliable internet.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec 2013 9:34 pm 
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I know its old, but some people might not have seen it before.

Like everything else from the government, it is BS. I agree, focussing on the Gaeltacht foremost would be much better

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec 2013 10:14 pm 
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Radio na Gaeltachta and TG4 have improved things somewhat as regards understanding different speakers. This only works of course for those who actually watch and listen to it!! All the 'Gaeltacht Irish' you want here. 'Urban Irish' - well we'll just have to wait and see! If you have any Irish at all, then pass it on to your kids. I have fought in it, laughed in it and discussed in it with my three who are now adults God bless them. The more young people have it or who are favourable to the very existence of Irish, the more demand will be generated from the ground up and not as is the case at present - from the dream down. We absolutely must make it 'cool' to speak Irish! Show it is able to handle any subject no matter how scientific/technical/artistic and stand its ground beside one of the strongest languages in the world all around us. How to devise an improved method of doing that? Well there's the question, but I would start with the young.

Bíonn sé i níos éasca dúinn anois cainteoirí difriúla a thuiscint de bharr Radio na Gaeltachta agus TG4. Ar ndóigh, tá sin amhlaidh i measc na ndaoine a bhreathnaíonn agus a mbíonn cluais le héisteacht acu orthu!! Togha agus rogha Gaeilge na Gaeltachta ar fáil anseo do chách. ‘Gaeilge na Cathrach’ - bhuel feicfidh muid maidir leis sin! Más rud é go bhfuil Gaeilg ar bith agat, tabhair do na gasúir í. Thug mé amach dóibh inti, bhain mé craic leo inti, agus phléigh mé cora casta agus bealaí móra an tsaoil leis na gasúir agam féin inti - triúr gasúr atá ina ndaoine fásta anois bail ó Dhia orthu agus go bhfága Sé an tsláinte acu. Ba mhóide an t-éileamh ón bhfréamh go dtí an ghéag aníos ar an teanga níos mó daoine óga agus Gaeilge acu ann. Níos mó daoine óga atá ar son Gaeilge ar bith a theastaíos. Beag éileamh a thiocfas as fís mar atáthar ag iarraidh faoi láthair. Níl aon dul as againn ach é a dhéanamh 'faiseanta' an Ghaeilge a labhairt. Taispeánaimis ábaltacht na Gaeilge tabhairt faoi ábhar eolaíoch/teicniúil/ealaíne ar bith agus léirímis go bhfuil sí in ann a fód féin a sheasamh le hais ceann de na teangacha is mó cumhacht ar domhan ata mórthimpeall orainn. Bealach níos fearr an méid sin a dhéanamh? Bhuel b’shin í an cheist atá ann, ach chuirfinn féin fios ar an bhfreagra i measc na ndaoine óga.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec 2013 11:27 pm 
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"Urban Irish"... uh-huh. There's a similar fiction in Scottish Gaelic. Plenty of languages do form "urban dialects" and yes, non-natives are part of that, but if all the genuine native speakers preserve a distinctive dialect and the learners all keep speaking like learners, that's not the same thing as Noo Yoik English which despite the huge number of German, Dutch, Italian, Polish, Yiddish, Russian etc etc speakers, is still dominated by recognisable native English features.

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PostPosted: Sun 15 Dec 2013 12:10 am 
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Braoin, there is no value whatsoever in Urban Irish in passing it on. You say you have passed on Irish to three children - but that is Gaeltacht Irish you're talking about - so you are mixing up the two things immediately.

"The more young people who are favourable to Irish" - blah blah blah - this turns Irish into some kind of nationalistic political campaign. It makes no difference to me if people who don't want to learn the language are favourable to it or not - this is not for me a campaign of spreading favourable attitudes as a stepping stone to creating a nation speaking fake-Irish.

How can you show that Irish can handle any subject matter when it can't? There are things like particle physics that have NEVER been done in Irish - and NEVER been discussed in Irish - all you can do is to pretend to create a vocabulary for it that no native speaker will recognise. Unless those words are used by the native speakers - they are not legitimate Irish words.

What you are talking about is a totally fake and artificial thing. Esperanto probably has a Coiste Téarmaíochta devising nonsense terms too. Imagine going down to the Dinka people of the Sudan and finding - shock, horror - there is no word for proton, neutron or electron in their language - and telling them "don't worry, we have a university department of non-native speakers of Dinka in the US who will make the words up for you". The Dinka tribesman says, "but we won't understand those words, because we will never have used them". Mr Standard Dinka in a US university department replies, "that shows you are the Sudanese equivalent of boggers, who don't speak the technical and refined version of your language, because you're not educated enough". The Dinka tribesman replies, "but Dinka is our language - how can you make up terms we have never used? How come they become the higher style of our language, imposed by you on us?" Mr Standard Dinka in a US university department replies, "how can Dinka be dragged into the modern world otherwise?" The Dinka tribesman replies, "as and when we need those words we will come up with a form ourselves, or use a loan word, or possibly even use a word you have made up for us, but until we use them, the words you are devising are just nonsense".

Braoin, can you tell me the Gaeltacht version of the following passage from Wikipedia:

Quote:
A quark is an elementary particle and a fundamental constituent of matter. Quarks combine to form composite particles called hadrons, the most stable of which are protons and neutrons, the components of atomic nuclei. Due to a phenomenon known as color confinement, quarks are never directly observed or found in isolation; they can be found only within hadrons, such as baryons (of which protons and neutrons are examples), and mesons. For this reason, much of what is known about quarks has been drawn from observations of the hadrons themselves.


Please do so WITHOUT using any words that native speakers in the Gaeltacht have never used.

It is simply factually the case that that paragraph cannot be translated into Irish, other than by using italicised loan words throughout.


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PostPosted: Sun 15 Dec 2013 12:13 am 
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Maybe we can call the Urban Irish Galldais, reflecting the fact it is the second languge of the Gallthacht, and so we can say:

Cad é an Ghaelainn ar seo? Agus
Cad é an Ghalldais ar seo?


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