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 Post subject: Re: Haigh!
PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 2:17 pm 
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patrickjwalsh wrote:
Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
patrickjwalsh wrote:
Luke, I don't know if it'd be appropriate to offer corrections to a language you already claim to be your own, but as you said you are willing to learn, let's look at this:

Quote:
Faidhb ar bith a Dhomnall. Tá Brón orm, beidh mé nios mó curamach...


First of all: "more careful" - requires the comparative. Níos curamaí. Níos curamaiġe in the old script.

A Dhómhnaill - requires the vocative.

Fadhb - I don't if any dialect has a slender b there so I won't be dogmatic on that. If it does exist, it would be a case of the erstwhile dative being used for the nominative in a dialect, something that frequently happens. Actually the Irish I'm learning has no "f": adhb.

I don't like fadhb ar bith for "no problem", a) because it parallels English exactly and I wonder if it is Béarlachas, and b) because Lúghaidh has said many times on this forum that "ar bith" doesn't mean "no" - it means "any". Maybe "gan fadhb ar bith" would make more sense. But the one could be an abbreviation of the other here.

What is "no problem" in Irish? A good question - I suppose one of the alternatives offered at http://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/ ... problem__6 would do the job.

I suppose ná bac san would be a possible version. Any views on that?


Well I origionally put 'Ní fadhb ar bith' to someone at some point just making that up on the spot but was corrected that it was 'Fadhb ar bith' on its own. Maybe that is more of a slang thing but to be honest a lot of Irish does not make a lot of sense when translated directly into English so I thought that was just one of those things I had to accept.

Can you explain - Níos curamaí a bit better to me and as to why it has changed? Try not use funny words like 'the comparative' or if you don't mind explain them because I have trouble understanding what half of those mean and could do with learning their meaning too :LOL: I actually have trouble with that aspect of my verb book. Thanks for the help by the way :D


OK - it's a good question.

cúramach - is the ordinary adjective (careful)
cúramaí - is the comparative (meaning - the version used to compare things - "more careful")

Actually, the "more X" forms are identical to the forms used in the feminine genitive.

The way it should work is that the ending is -ch, which slenderises in certain case to -igh. Gh is the slender equivalent of ch, with glide vowels required to show the slender quality.

For example: coileach becomes coiligh in the plural.

The dative singular feminine is a slenderised version of the adjective: cúramaigh. And the genitive singular just adds -e onto the dative: cúramaighe.

So you should have:

Nominative (the ordinary form of the work): bean chúramach, "a careful woman"
Genitive (saying "of" usually): mná cúramaighe, "of a careful woman".
Dative (used after prepositions like 'do'): do mhnaoi chúramaigh, "to a careful woman".

Then the form used to compare things (the comparative) is identical to the feminine genitive form: níos cúramaighe.

Only, because the pronunciation of -aighe is aí, they made that the new spelling, despite the fact it wasn't irregular to begin with.

Eg aigne na mná cúramaí "the mind of the careful woman". Bí níos cúramaí, "be more careful".

You don't say "níos mó cúramaí", because you use níos + the correct adjective you want.

Níos mó: means "more", where mó is a comparing word (the comparative of mór)
Níos lú: "less", where lú is a form of beag.
Níos cúramaí: "more careful"
Níos áille: "more beautiful".

There is one more form: superlative (saying "most"): an bhean is cúramach - the most careful woman. An bhean is áille - the most beautiful woman. These use "is" and not "níos".


Understood most of that I think. 'Is' I already knew. Níos mó and Níos fear etc. I actually knew but slipped up :rolleyes:

So i could say for example: Caith tú a bheith cúramach - You have to be careful. Or I could say: Caith tú a bheith níos cúramaí. - You have to be more careful.

Or: Tá ort a bheith níos cúramaí.

Oh and just a quick question on that while I am at it. The 'caith' version of the above sentence - would that be seen as a passing comment as opposed to the 'Tá ort' version of the same sentence being to convey to someone they have a responsibility to be careful? Or are they just both the same?

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 Post subject: Re: Haigh!
PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 2:24 pm 
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Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
Understood most of that I think. 'Is' I already knew. Níos mó and Níos fear etc. I actually knew but slipped up :rolleyes:

So i could say for example: Caith tú a bheith cúramach - You have to be careful. Or I could say: Caith tú a bheith níos cúramaí. - You have to be more careful.

Or: Tá ort a bheith níos cúramaí.

Oh and just a quick question on that while I am at it. The 'caith' version of the above sentence - would that be seen as a passing comment as opposed to the 'Tá ort' version of the same sentence being to convey to someone they have a responsibility to be careful? Or are they just both the same?


I don't think there is much difference - but I will be interested to see if the forum regulars have a comment to make. Caitheann tú (not caith tú) means "you must". Tá ort - means "you have to". Is there much of a difference between those in English?

I don't think "a" is needed before bheith here. "to be" is just bheith in Irish. Caitheann tú bheith níos cúramaí.

There's nothing wrong with caitheann tú in the present - but you will see it more frequently in the future: caithfidh tú bheith níos cúramaí.


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 Post subject: Re: Haigh!
PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 2:35 pm 
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patrickjwalsh wrote:
Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
Understood most of that I think. 'Is' I already knew. Níos mó and Níos fear etc. I actually knew but slipped up :rolleyes:

So i could say for example: Caith tú a bheith cúramach - You have to be careful. Or I could say: Caith tú a bheith níos cúramaí. - You have to be more careful.

Or: Tá ort a bheith níos cúramaí.

Oh and just a quick question on that while I am at it. The 'caith' version of the above sentence - would that be seen as a passing comment as opposed to the 'Tá ort' version of the same sentence being to convey to someone they have a responsibility to be careful? Or are they just both the same?


I don't think there is much difference - but I will be interested to see if the forum regulars have a comment to make. Caitheann tú (not caith tú) means "you must". Tá ort - means "you have to". Is there much of a difference between those in English?

I don't think "a" is needed before bheith here. "to be" is just bheith in Irish. Caitheann tú bheith níos cúramaí.



Wouldn't : "Caitheann tú bheith níos cúramaí" just be making a general statement though as opposed to giving an order? I mean for example, if a child picked up a hot poker and you said you have to be more careful would you not be giving an order as opposed to just a general statement about safety?

I always took 'Tá ort' as meaning 'it is on you' in other words, the responsibility is on your shoulders.

I am glad you cleared up that 'bheith' problem as that always puzzled me as to why it did not come at the end of the sentence. For example: Rith mé sa bhaile do mo dhinear a h'ithe.

a h'ithe comes at the end of the sentence. I always thought 'a bheith' for some reason acted differently but now you tell me it is not 'a bheith' but actually bheith on its own.

or maybe thats : Rith mé sa bhaile le haghaigh mo dhinear a h'ithe?

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 Post subject: Re: Haigh!
PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 2:50 pm 
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Caitheann tú: is present habitual.

You can see at http://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/must?q=must they have: if you must talk, do so quietly "má chaitheann tú labhairt labhair go ciúin".

But as you say, as present habitual, it seems more general, e.g. "if you do be having to do that..."

That's why the future is used - also on that site they have: I must say, "caithfidh mé a rá".

As for "a"... That's quite complicated. For a start "rith mé sa bhaile do mo dhinear a h'ithe" is not right. It would be: rith mé ABHAILE CHUN mo dhinnéar a DH'ithe.

Abhaile: homeward
Sa bhaile: at home

A: comes between the verbal noun and its object. Gaelainn a fhoghlaim or Gaelainn a dh'fhoghlaim - to study Irish. Mo dhinnéar a ithe or mo dhinneár a dh'ithe - to eat my dinner.

Bheith - if it just means "to be" requires no "a". (I believe some dialects permanently put in an "a" - but that depends on the dialect.)


Another a: means "its, his, hers" and can be used with the verbal noun; caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuileann tú ag féachaint go hálainn - "I must say you are looking beautiful". Here is means "I must say IT that you are looking beautiful" - a rá means "its saying" - ie "the saying of it".


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 Post subject: Re: Haigh!
PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 3:11 pm 
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Inconsistency alert! ;-)
patrickjwalsh wrote:
There is one more form: superlative (saying "most"): an bhean is cúramach - the most careful woman. An bhean is áille - the most beautiful woman. These use "is" and not "níos".


patrickjwalsh wrote:
(duine or other noun) is cúramaí: most careful

I'm guessing that the second is correct, and that Irish (like Scottish Gaelic and French, Spanish etc) uses the same adjective form for both comparative and superlative degrees...?

(Although now that I think about it, I recall my Scottish Gaelic lecturer telling me that Scottish Gaelic doesn't actually have a comparative (-er/most) and superlative (-est/most) but has a pattern that is similar but not the same. There's nas and as, and they're taught to learners as comparative and superlative, but they aren't really one or the other. Irish may be the same....)

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Last edited by NiallBeag on Wed 04 Dec 2013 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Haigh!
PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 3:15 pm 
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NiallBeag wrote:
Inconsistency alert! ;-)
patrickjwalsh wrote:
There is one more form: superlative (saying "most"): an bhean is cúramach - the most careful woman. An bhean is áille - the most beautiful woman. These use "is" and not "níos".


patrickjwalsh wrote:
(duine or other noun) is cúramaí: most careful

I'm guessing that the second is correct, and that Irish (like Scottish Gaelic and French, Spanish etc) uses the same adjective form for both comparative and superlative degrees...?



Yes! The second is the correct one and I've edited my original post to say cúramaí so that it makes sense to readers who don't have time to read down to your correction here.


Last edited by patrickjwalsh on Thu 05 Dec 2013 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Haigh!
PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 3:21 pm 
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Cén fath tú ag usáid an fochal Gaelainn in ionaid mar an fochal Geailge? Is cuimheann liom go bhfuil bhí muid go raibh i gconnaí
ag usáid an fochal Geailge nuair a bhí mé sa scoil.

Why are you using the word Gaelainn instead of the word Geailge?

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 Post subject: Re: Haigh!
PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 3:27 pm 
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Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
Cén fath tú ag usáid an fochal Gaelainn in ionaid an fochal Geailge? Is cuimheann liom go bhfuil bhí muid go raibh i gconnaí
ag usáid an fochal Geailge nuair a bhí mé sa scoil.

Why are you using the word Gaelainn instead of the word Geailge?


Gaeilge - note the initial broad g - the pronunciation is like G-er-ayl-gye - is the Connemara form, which has been adopted as the Standard form. The form is Gaeilge all the time in Galway Irish.

In West Munster Irish it is: Gaelainn in the nominative and Gaelainne in the genitive. Gaoluinn is another spelling. As well as Gaedhealuing!

I believe in East Munster Irish it is: Gaeilinn, with a slender l.

In Ulster Irish: Gaeilg or Gaeilic?


Last edited by patrickjwalsh on Wed 04 Dec 2013 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Haigh!
PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 3:29 pm 
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Luke, how far are you from Ráth Cairn Gaeltacht? Can you go there? Also: as they speak Connemara Irish in Ráth Cairn, maybe you can learn that - and all the recordings from Bríd Mhór here will be great for you - you will just be able to copy her. You can get Learning Irish by Mícheál Ó Siadhail and then you will be on your way to a full dialectal Irish - and the same one as used in Ráth Cairn!


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 Post subject: Re: Haigh!
PostPosted: Wed 04 Dec 2013 3:45 pm 
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Luke Ó Scolaidhe wrote:
I am glad you cleared up that 'bheith' problem as that always puzzled me as to why it did not come at the end of the sentence. For example: Rith mé sa bhaile do mo dhinear a h'ithe.

a h'ithe comes at the end of the sentence. I always thought 'a bheith' for some reason acted differently but now you tell me it is not 'a bheith' but actually bheith on its own.

It's not really the presence or absence of "a" that makes a difference*, it's the the nature of what comes alongside it. Nouns and noun phrases switch places with verbs when they're acting as what's called "direct objects".

What are direct objects?
The subject verbs the direct object with the indirect object.

eg in "The man shot his brother with a pistol", the subject is "the man", the "do-er" of the sentence, the direct object is "his brother", the person who it is "done to" and most affected by the action, and the indirect object is something that is involved in the action but not heavily affected by it. Indirect objects are normally (but not always) preceeded by a preposition (with etc).

"nios curamaí" is not a direct object -- it's not even a noun phrase. It's an adjective, so it doesn't move before the verb.

The reason that "(a) bheith" never takes anything before it is simple and regular, not an exception: "bheith" does not take a direct object, so there is nothing that is able to move before it.

* Even if it's not there in modern usage, historically there was an a or do, hence lenition of the initial B.

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