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PostPosted: Sun 01 Dec 2013 10:01 pm 
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What about 'a strong cup of strong tea'? 'Neart-mhuga tae láidir'?

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PostPosted: Mon 02 Dec 2013 2:59 am 
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cupa láidir (?) tae láidir.
How can a cup be strong though? :)

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PostPosted: Mon 02 Dec 2013 3:51 am 
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Lughaidh wrote:
cupa láidir (?) tae láidir.
How can a cup be strong though? :)

I was thinking of one that didn't break easily - láidir is the adjective used with strong or durable materials, i.e., síoda láidir "strong silk", etc., is it not?

The reason I asked in the first place is because An Lon Dubh's muga láidir tae "strong cup of tea" to me seems to infer that the mug/cup is strong, rather than the tea ... :dhera:

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Mon 02 Dec 2013 10:17 pm 
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Actually even in English in Ireland we say "a strong cup of tea" rather than "a cup of strong tea". Is this not the same in other dialects of English?

As an example of native usage of the phrase, I'll take Maidhc Dainín Ó Sé's Idir Dhá Lios, p.40:
Chuir a mháthair ubh beirithe, dhá chanta aráin agus muga láidir tae os a chomhair.

However it's a bad example because "strong" is transferred to "cup" even though logically it should be the tea.

Better examples would be:
Lá breá samhraidh = A fine summer's day.
Paistí maithe talún = Good patches of land.
Crann mór daraí* = A big oak tree (Lit: A big tree of oak)
Buidéal maith fuiscí = A good bottle of whiskey.

Although the last one is making me wonder does Irish always transfer an adjective describing the quality of
a drink to its container? :dhera: I know we do it in English.

Ignoring this special case of drinks (!), the basic rule is that a noun in the genitive used as an adjective always comes after other adjectives.

*Daraí is the genitive of Dair in Munster, it might be different in other dialects.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Dec 2013 7:05 pm 
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An Lon Dubh wrote:
Actually even in English in Ireland we say "a strong cup of tea" rather than "a cup of strong tea". Is this not the same in other dialects of English?

As an example of native usage of the phrase, I'll take Maidhc Dainín Ó Sé's Idir Dhá Lios, p.40:
Chuir a mháthair ubh beirithe, dhá chanta aráin agus muga láidir tae os a chomhair.

However it's a bad example because "strong" is transferred to "cup" even though logically it should be the tea.

Better examples would be:
Lá breá samhraidh = A fine summer's day.
Paistí maithe talún = Good patches of land.
Crann mór daraí* = A big oak tree (Lit: A big tree of oak)
Buidéal maith fuiscí = A good bottle of whiskey.

Although the last one is making me wonder does Irish always transfer an adjective describing the quality of
a drink to its container? :dhera: I know we do it in English.

Ignoring this special case of drinks (!), the basic rule is that a noun in the genitive used as an adjective always comes after other adjectives.

*Daraí is the genitive of Dair in Munster, it might be different in other dialects.

I don't think English is a good reference point (after all English says things like "I don't think he is there" when logically we mean "I think that he is not there" - and other languages would use the latter) but I can see that the Irish has a logic of its own here that makes perfect sense now that you've explained it. :wave:

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WARNING: Intermediate speaker - await further opinions, corrections and adjustments before acting on my advice.
My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Tue 03 Dec 2013 9:04 pm 
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Breandán wrote:
I don't think English is a good reference point (after all English says things like "I don't think he is there" when logically we mean "I think that he is not there" - and other languages would use the latter) but I can see that the Irish has a logic of its own here that makes perfect sense now that you've explained it. :wave:


This is something that comes up frequently when comparing Chinese to English grammar. However, owing to the Sprachbund effect, possibly, the Irish has ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sé ann - the same as in English - and not **is dóigh liom ná fuil sé ann or is é is dóigh liom ná ná fuil sé ann.

[I found on Google:

1. 我觉得他不爱我 - 941,000 times. Literally "I think he doesn't love me".
2. 我不觉得他爱我 - 30.3 million times. Literally, "I don't think he loves me".

But it strikes me only the second form is natural English idiom, although clearly the English style phrasing is most common in Chinese in that phrase too. I know there is a Chinese man studying Irish on this forum - maybe he has a strong view on this?]


Last edited by patrickjwalsh on Wed 04 Dec 2013 12:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Dec 2013 11:55 pm 
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Pragmatic logic plays a part too -is a 'red blooded male' someone covered in blood?

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