Present Subjunctive:Quote:
Could you give an example subjunctive + noun?
In Séadna Caibideal a Trí, we have "Go mbuafaidh Dia...", on the recordings by Cois Life
Maighréad Uí Lionáird pronounces "mbuafaidh" as "mbua".
The reason I picked out subjunctive + noun is that for pronouns the future ending "-faidh",
just becomes "-tha", but before nouns it still has the "g" sound at the end, so there was a possibility
that the "g" sound of the subjunctive was still retained before a noun rather than a pronoun.
Although it seems to be on the way out in Cork and Kerry, although it was the traditional pronunciation.
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I have heard it to a certain degree, especially in the Ring version of the prayer “Ár nAthair athá ar neamh”, it fluctuates between “go dtagaidh” and “go dtaga”.
That's interesting to know. In
The Irish of West Muskerry the “go dtagaidh” version is given, although "Teach Yourself Irish" gives the pronunciation as "go dtaga". So, probably both are still in existence.
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As regards Cork Irish, I have a Cork version of the same prayer (or what I presume to be a Cork version, its definitely Munster Irish, maybe you can verify) that we were given as part of our Léamh agus litriú class (where we studied the basics of manuscript reading, editing and history; the old script and nodanna; a touch of IPA; Cumann Um Leitiriú Shimplí and the Caighdeán).
Sounds like an interesting course.
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“Ár nAthair atá ar neamh go naomhuighthear t’ainm, go dtagaidh do ríoghdhacht, go ndéintear do thoil ar an dtalamh mar a déintear ar neamh. Ár n-arán laetheamhail túir dúinn aniogh, agus maith dhúinn ár gcionta mar a mhaithimíd do chách a chiontuigheann in ár n-aghaidh, ná léig sinn i gcathaíbh ach saor sinn ón olc. Amen
It's the version from
The Irish of West Muskerry, definitely Cork Irish.
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also, wasn’t that what you were on about earlier, when you PMed me. I think you were saying that Munster Irish tries to make the foirceann of this tense, in the Céasta, broad, even if it should be slender?
Exactly, the foirceann doesn't match the ending of the root regarding broad/slender quality.
Past Subjunctive:Quote:
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Just so I understand, in Ring do you have:
Do glantá - Habitual past - you used to clean
Dá nglanthá - Past subjunctive - If you were to clean
Yep
Fascinating!
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Interesting, has the conditional overtaken the past subjunctive after “dá” as well in Kerry, do you know?
Yes, Diarmuid Ó Sé's monograph on Kerry Irish doesn't mention the past subjunctive and for example none of the writer Maidhc
Dainín Ó Sé's books use it. On an anecdotal level, I've never heard it.
By the way, all the information on Old Irish is very much appreciated!
Lenition after verbal noun:Quote:
In old Irish, lenition after the verbal noun was very common “the initial consonant of a noun immediately following the dative singular of a verbal noun is lenited-
oc marbad Chonairi” (Quin E.G., Old Irish Workbook, pg. 49)
Okay so it was the rule in Old Irish, I was wondering.
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It is difficult to say “ag cur shuime” (suim pronounced like the “Sim” in the first name Simon in English)
The "big" difference between West Munster and the Déise is this phonetic feature, that with the loss tense L,N and R, West Munster
lengthened some vowels, where as the Déise turned them into diphthongs.
To be honest, personal speculation, I suspect that calling them both "Munster Irish" is just an artefact of the way Irish is now. Probably if Leinster Irish was still around, you would have just a continuum with Déise Irish equally close to the Irish of Carlow as it is to Kerry Irish.
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However, after a good look at various sources, Seana-Chaint na nDéise I and II, Leabhair Mhaidhc Dháith and Cín Lae Amhlaoibh Uí Shuilleabháin and with specifically searching for lenition proceeding the verbal noun in mind, I discovered, as you have pointed out that its usage is highly irregular as if, as you said, only used when it is as if the phrase used is all one word or one meaning or not even then.
Interesting, Diarmuid Ó Sé explains it this way in Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne. By the way isn't it interesting that Amhlaoibh's Irish is far less conservative than Cork/Kerry/Déise Irish today? He often doesn't use the genitive, rarely uses the genitive plural, often has adjectives in the singular after plural nouns. Reminds me more of old fashioned Conamara Irish grammatically, even though the pronunciation would have been Déise-like.
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No example of lenition found after verbal noun in CLA.
Very interesting, fair play on the effort, that's great to know.
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It does not mention anything about lenition after the verbal noun, although one could deduce from the examples given that lenition wasn't that common. It did mention something interesting about the use of the genitive proceeding the verbal noun:
Yeah, an adjective killing the genitive is basically the rule in Kerry Irish. Again, Cork Irish speakers tend to be more traditional on this point. Most people in Kerry would say "a' déanamh an bhróg dhubh", you'd have to go back to Blasket literature to get "a' déanamh na bróige duibhe".
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My opinion now is, in Ring Irish at least, lenition does not occur after the verbal noun, except in certain phrases, or stock phrases as you called it. “Ag bhaint phrátaí” being the only example I could find within the corpus of literature. However, “ag baint phrátaí” seemed to be lenited in every example, as there is about a dozen instances were I have seen it in Leabhair Mhaidhc Dháith.
"Ag baint phrátaí" is the canonical example. As far as I can lenition only remains in phrases relating to common farmyard practices and
the weather. I recommend Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne, point 101. He says the noun is lenited in mórán frásaí
coitianta.
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I think what you should say is precisely what you’ve told me: that lenition may occur in certain phrases that are thought of as being stock or whole phrases by themselves and are used as way of conveying a certain thought or action. Lenition in this case, is not a concrete grammatical rule and Ring is no exception. This is unlike Old Irish, where the tendency to lenite was nearly always present where applicable.
Thanks.
More coming....
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