Thanks for explaining that, Redwolf. That's exactly the point I've been trying to make.

Yeah, that's been my understanding of this, based on conversations with older people (and other information that I've come across).

Steady on now. A fair reading of what you and/or others have been saying is that "Gaelic" is the older usage (with references to older people in Ireland, ancestors of Irish-Americans etc.) and "Irish" is something more recent, foisted on the plain people by officialdom and "political correctness".

Now in Ireland there have been quite a few disputes over the years about what to call various places and things but never, to my knowledge, about what to call the language. Contrary to the constant suggestion here, there is no active "political" stance on this, by the public authorities or anyone else, any more than there is in relation to what to call the English language. Everybody simply knows it as "Irish". The one time Irish people do use the term "Gaelic", as has been mentioned here, is to accommodate foreigners, who experience has shown them will be more familiar with that name. (That is clearly what is going on in those youtube clips you posted, by the way). I have lived several decades in Ireland and the number of times I have heard Irish people, among themselves, refer to the language as "Gaelic", other than as parody, is way under one per cent. Do not be deceived by the courtesy afforded outsiders of switching to a term it is assumed they will know better. (And courtesy is a two-way street of course...).

Perhaps you could now elaborate on your various references to memos, political correctness, teachers drumming things into people's heads, current official positions etc., all of which seems, from an Irish perspective, like pure delusion.

Who is doing this and how is it "political"?

No doubt that's true where you are but in Ireland and in Europe "English paper" could equally be taken to mean a newspaper from England. To avoid ambiguity you add the word "language". That is no different for Irish than for any of those other languages

Hi,

It's probably fair enough for people to call the language by whichever name they prefer, or whatever they think will be best understood. I live in France and always refer to the language as "irlandais" or "la langue irlandaise" but I generally end up having to explain that what I'm talking about is "gaélique". I simply explain that in Ireland the language is known in English as "Irish" so therefore I call it "irlandais" in French. And then they get it.

I sympathise with voorzitter's point here in the sense that it's odd to evoke political correctness or memos or officialdom when really it's just a question of people's habits, in Ireland or elsewhere. I imagine it might irk (Irish-) Americans or any other members of the diaspora when an Irish person 'corrects' them when they refer to Gaelic, and whilst it's certainly silly to make such a correction, it has nothing to do with officaldom etc. It's just a question of habits.

Slán,

Domhnall

_________________
Ultach mé agus Gaeilg Uladh a labhraim go measardha maith!

More often than not we call it l'irlandais but at the club at the Quiet Man in Paris they do happen to call it gaélique. In France usually those who go to for Ireland for a holiday say that they find the accent (in English) not that easy to understand, but apart from that we don't know very much about it. I've found myself having more difficulty explaining that in Scotland there's not only (Scots) Gaelic but Scots as well.
Comhrá Gaeilge - Parlez gaélique à Paris - Talk Gaelic in Paris
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p20zyMPwwdA
(where are you in France an Braonach?)

Referring to the Irish language as Gaelic IS an old usage and older people DO say Gaelic – by the way, I'm not saying every single old person does this, so don't start building another straw man. Several people on this forum (including myself) have met and are aware of Irish people who refer to the language as Gaelic, so your ridiculous claim that "The one time Irish people do use the term "Gaelic", as has been mentioned here, is to accommodate foreigners" is demonstrably false.

As for your other claim that follows:
How did you determine this? Do you know them personally? Can you read minds? It looks like you're just seeing what you want to see. And by the way, I notice that you didn't address what was said by An Lon Dubh, who I consider to be an impeccable source. Why do you think the old Irish language revival group was called The Gaelic League? I don't know if they still go by the English version of their name anymore, but they were certainly called The Gaelic League in the 1940s and '50s, so lots of people from the older generation knew about The Gaelic League and apparently referred, and still refer, to the Irish language as Gaelic.

Wow, I had no idea that you are the spokesman of the Irish people! Do you really think that your personal "perspective" represents all Irish people? Hah, talk about "pure delusion"! You know perfectly well that I wasn't referring to a literal, physical memo. And the obnoxious "corrections" that people from other countries occasionally receive when we say the word Gaelic are very much akin to political "correctness" from people who think that their way of talking is "right" and everyone else is wrong.

To repeat: "Irish" is what Irish people invariably call the language among themselves. If "Gaelic" comes up in a conversation it's more likely a reference to football than to language. When speaking to foreigners Irish people will routinely use "Gaelic" as either a gloss or a substitute in the same way they may gloss or substitute "taoiseach" with "prime minister", for example, something they would never think of doing in exclusively Irish company. I appreciate that for an outsider this may give rise to a misapprehension that the gloss or substitute term is more widely used than it actually is and this may well be what happened in your case, if in fact you believe that the Irish language is commonly referred to as "Gaelic" by any significant proportion of Irish people other than in the above circumstances.

By the by, for all your sarcasm you have again failed to substantiate your talk of "memos, political correctness, teachers drumming things into people's heads, current official positions etc.", which suggests to me that you are unable to do so (and yes, I did understand that your reference to a memo wasn't literal but meant to represent some sort of official intervention by "powers that be", to use another reference of yours that remains unexplained).

However obnoxious a correction that doesn't suffice to make it a matter of "political correctness"*. If somebody pulls you up on a split infinitive or a dangling participle, the "correctness" they're misguidedly concerned with is just plain old "correctness", not "political correctness".

*"a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behaviour seen as seeking to minimise social and institutional offence in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent" (Wikipedia)

Invariably? Okay, now I know you're being deliberately dishonest. Several people on this forum have already demonstrated that this assertion of yours is false.

Not a single person on this forum has said that. I've met a couple older people who refer to the Irish language as Gaelic. Several other people on here have also met or are aware of some people who refer to the Irish language as Gaelic. Nobody ever claimed that the language is "commonly referred to as "Gaelic" by any significant proportion of Irish people". You really love straw man fallacies, don't you?

Well, first of all, this is not a burning issue to me. I don't mind posting a quick message on here to debunk your false assertions, but I'm not going to take the time and effort to scour the internet looking for documentation to back up a statement that is tangential to the main point that I've been making.

Of course, I could ask YOU to "substantiate your talk".

You say "Irish" is what Irish people invariably call the language among themselves." Okay, prove that every single Irish person says "Irish" rather than Gaelic – oh, by the way, "invariably" means without exception.

You say "The one time Irish people do use the term "Gaelic", as has been mentioned here, is to accommodate foreigners". Let's see actual proof that this statement is true.

To use your turn of phrase: By the by, you have failed to substantiate your talk, which suggests that you are unable to do so. See, I can say that, too. In reality, I am stating my opinion and you are stating your opinion. Neither of us have documentation to "prove" every single thing that we're saying – although a couple of your statements that were blatantly false have been debunked.

You've got way too much time on your hands.

Since you seem genuinely not to understand allow me to explain: When reporting first-hand experience there is no question of "proof". The way it works is this: if my experience as I report it is at odds with that of others in the same situation (in this case Irish people, of which there must be a few around here), then they post their contrasting experience (in nice grown-up fashion, no tantrums), we compare notes (again all nice and grown-up), and with a bit of luck everybody learns something.
If however you assert facts of which you have no direct knowledge, such as let's say something about teachers in some foreign country "drumming" things into heads, and this is news to people who actually live there and do have first-hand knowledge, then it is not unreasonable to be asked to explain where you came by the facts asserted. It's not a question of "scouring the internet"...

[Incidentally, "invariably" can either mean "always" or "almost always" and I was obviously using it in the latter sense]