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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2013 9:08 pm 
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When I was in Edinburgh the other week I was surprised to see a bus with Pen Y Cog written in large letters along its side. Its destination was Penicuik which in Brythonic means The Hill of the Cuckoo. There's also the linguistic difference between Inverness (Inbhir Nis) and Aberdeen which has been transposed into Gàidhlig as Obar Dheathain. Inbhir and aber both mean the same thing - the mouth of a river.


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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2013 9:32 pm 
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franc 91 wrote:
When I was in Edinburgh the other week I was surprised to see a bus with Pen Y Cog written in large letters along its side. Its destination was Penicuik which in Brythonic means The Hill of the Cuckoo. There's also the linguistic difference between Inverness (Inbhir Nis) and Aberdeen which has been transposed into Gàidhlig as Obar Dheathain. Inbhir and aber both mean the same thing - the mouth of a river.


There's lots of hidden and not-so-hidden Brythonic in Scottish place names. The river Clyde is written as Cluad in Gaelic, remaining phonetically close to its Brythonic form of Clwyd, and there's the ancient capital at Dunkeld, Dùn Chailleann, which is a combination of the Gaelic dùn for fortress and a Pictish/Brythonic form such as kalden, meaning Caledonia. And, of course, there's Glasgow, from the Brythonic glas ("green", as in Gaelic also) and cau, making "green hollow". Some of the Isles (such as Skye) have names so old (possibly even pre-Celtic) that their true meanings are unknown, though some have been re-interpreted in folk memory as Gaelic or Norse names.

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PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2013 10:40 pm 
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voorzitter wrote:
I have two friends here in Texas who grew up in Ireland speaking Irish and both of them call it "Gaelic"

What part of Ireland are your friends from?


The 80-85 year old is James McNamara from County Clare. I played with him in a bagpipe band in Houston, Texas for about 20 years. He used to speak in Irish with another band member. I never heard him call it 'Irish' once. He always referred to it as "Gaelic". The 65 year old guy is a horse trainer who lives about 5 five miles from me, and he is from County Kerry. He drove a horse with cart until he left home. He told me they would go to the nearest village and people wouldn't wait on you unless you spoke in 'gaelic".


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PostPosted: Tue 28 May 2013 11:49 am 
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The 80-85 year old is James McNamara from County Clare. I played with him in a bagpipe band in Houston, Texas for about 20 years. He used to speak in Irish with another band member. I never heard him call it 'Irish' once. He always referred to it as "Gaelic". The 65 year old guy is a horse trainer who lives about 5 five miles from me, and he is from County Kerry. He drove a horse with cart until he left home. He told me they would go to the nearest village and people wouldn't wait on you unless you spoke in 'gaelic".


Thanks. I wonder if they adapted their terminology to their listeners. I have never heard a Munster native speaker, young or old, refer to the language as "Gaelic". Donegal people do however and I believe this may be due to the fact that in their dialect the Irish word for the language is also "Gaelic" (rather than "Gaeilge" etc.).

I've read somewhere that when the language was first made a school subject back in the nineteenth century it was referred to as "Celtic".


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PostPosted: Tue 28 May 2013 3:18 pm 
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voorzitter wrote:
I have never heard a Munster native speaker, young or old, refer to the language as "Gaelic".
I knew a person from Munster (Múscraí Gaeltacht) in his mid-eighties who told me that his native language was Gaelic.

Then there's the old Tan War slogan that comes to mind: "Ireland United, Gaelic, and Free". And also the famous Irish language revival group in the early 20th century – "The Gaelic League".

Here's a link where fluent native speaker Pat Linney (from the Mayo Gaeltacht) says, "Well, it means a lot because first and foremost it's my native tongue, the Gaelic." [You can hear this at 8:27]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsOduU-20qk

And here's a link where a fluent native speaker from the Aran Islands refers to his language as Gaelic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEgJyWaNoG0

I guess not everybody got the latest memo that says it is no longer politically "correct" to say Gaelic anymore. ;)


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PostPosted: Tue 28 May 2013 8:18 pm 
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WeeFalorieMan wrote:
I guess not everybody got the latest memo that says it is no longer politically "correct" to say Gaelic anymore. ;)

Agreed, WFM. I think all three are correct in their own contexts.

The distinction of using "Irish" versus "Gaelic" for Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic, respectively, is very academic, and possibly political as well. This academic distinction struck me as odd when I first started learning the language. After all, it is called Gaeilge not Éirinnis* :LOL:

And besides, why should the Scots have a monopoly on the term "Gaelic". :rolleyes:

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My "specialty" is Connemara Irish, particularly Cois Fhairrge dialect, but I can also speak Ulster and Munster Irish with native-level pronunciation.
Is fearr Gaeilge ḃriste ná Béarla cliste, cinnte, aċ i ḃfad níos fearr aríst í Gaeilge ḃinn ḃeo na nGaeltaċtaí.
Gaeilge Chonnacht (GC), go háraid Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge (GCF), Gaeilic Uladh (GU), Gaelainn na Mumhan (GM), agus Gaeilge an Chaighdeáin Oifigiúil (CO).


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PostPosted: Tue 28 May 2013 9:25 pm 
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Your post was very much appreciated, a Bhreandáin. It's hard for me to give my opinion knowing that it is not currently approved of by the powers that be, so it's nice to know that at least one person agrees with me. :)

The terms "Irish Gaelic" and "Scottish Gaelic" are understood by everyone and they're certainly not "wrong", so that's what I usually say.


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PostPosted: Tue 28 May 2013 10:16 pm 
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WeeFalorieMan wrote:
Your post was very much appreciated, a Bhreandáin. It's hard for me to give my opinion knowing that it is not currently approved of by the powers that be, so it's nice to know that at least one person agrees with me. :)

The terms "Irish Gaelic" and "Scottish Gaelic" are understood by everyone and they're certainly not "wrong", so that's what I usually say.


I usually do the same, just to be clear. For one thing, I got tired of people asking me if I'm learning to speak with an Irish accent (or, worse, saying "I can speak Irish too!" and then going into the most godawful "Oirish" brogue!). If you tell someone in the U.S. you're learning Irish, you're likely to get, at best, a blank stare, followed by "do you mean Gaelic?"

I once had quite an argument with a shop assistant at Borders in San Francisco over the whole "Gaelic" thing. I was killing time in the language department and happened to mention to her that I always look for Irish language resources when I'm in a bookstore. She said "Oh, we just got a book in on Gaelic!" It happened to be "Teach Yourself Gaelic," and nothing I could do or say would persuade her that it was geared for Scottish Gaelic learners, or that Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are different languages. I think she was actually pretty pissed off that I didn't jump for joy and immediately buy the book!

Redwolf


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PostPosted: Tue 28 May 2013 10:36 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
I once had quite an argument with a shop assistant at Borders in San Francisco over the whole "Gaelic" thing. I was killing time in the language department and happened to mention to her that I always look for Irish language resources when I'm in a bookstore. She said "Oh, we just got a book in on Gaelic!" It happened to be "Teach Yourself Gaelic," and nothing I could do or say would persuade her that it was geared for Scottish Gaelic learners, or that Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are different languages. I think she was actually pretty pissed off that I didn't jump for joy and immediately buy the book!

She probably sold a copy earlier to someone who asked for Irish Gaelic, and didn't like finding out that she made a mistake. Some people are stubborn like that. I had a similar incident buying soft drinks in the supermarket and getting asked for ID. When I pointed out that the drinks were non-alcoholic, the girl still refused to serve me without ID. :LOL:

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PostPosted: Tue 28 May 2013 11:02 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
If you tell someone in the U.S. you're learning Irish, you're likely to get, at best, a blank stare, followed by "do you mean Gaelic?"
Well, that's definitely true. I see no reason to deliberately confuse people. I also hate to come across as a pedantic person who likes to lecture people. But what really bothers me is when somebody on-line tells me that I should never use the dreaded word – gasp! – Gaelic, because some teacher or other (along with the mass media) drummed it into their heads that the word Gaelic is somehow "wrong" and should never be used in the context of language. :rolleyes:
Redwolf wrote:
I once had quite an argument with a shop assistant at Borders in San Francisco over the whole "Gaelic" thing.
I think you did exactly the right thing. It's good to let people know that there is more than one type of Gaelic. :good:


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