Urban Irish

Somhairle Óg · **Posted:** Fri 28 Dec 2012 9:12 pm

It also depends what we mean by 'error' I'm sure if you took a professor to inner city London (cor blimey I'm 'appy he's used his loaf) or Dublin (jaysus I'm after getting flaming) the technical error rate of English would be about 90%!! But I don't think anyone would tell them they weren't fluent

I don't think any of us learners are going out to learn bad Irish, but the main group of urban Irish speakers are people in Gaelscoileanna who just speak it coincidentally and don't care for the language per se they have been brought up with the Irish they have been brought up with and that's that. The only way to curb that a small bit is to have a native teacher only rule, but even then you will have teachers from different regions and kids developing it themselves in the playground, I just don't think you can stop the language evolving the way it is. For me it's inevitable and pretty vital to hearing Irish grow in places like Dublin. I have heard Dublin Irish speakers say before they just don't relate to the Gaeltachts and the Irish spoke there isn't natural to them, why would it be!? Speaking with a Dublin accent in English but a Donegal accent in Irish would be strange, I guess at least this means there is a growing body of peers people can relate to with Irish in places like Dublin.

Mick · **Joined:** Fri 18 Nov 2011 2:27 pm **Posts:** 622

People who are born and raised in the Gaeltacht don't speak English with a Dublin accent, a Belfast accent, a Limerick accent or whatever. But they do learn the proper English pronunciation. They don't say "I go to khurukh on Sunday" and claim that it's correct "Gaeltacht" English.

I think that's the point that some people are missing when the distinction is made between accent and pronunciation. Learning the English "ch" sound does not make native Irish speakers sound like they come from Dublin, London, New York, Sydney etc.

As a learner of Irish, I make a point of practicing the proper Irish sounds. My pronunciation ain't perfect (yet!), but I give Irish the same respect that Gaeltacht natives give to English.

Redwolf · **Posted:** Fri 28 Dec 2012 11:42 pm

Breandán wrote:

Redwolf wrote:

Breandán wrote:

Redwolf wrote:

I totally agree that people who knowingly speak poor Irish and pass it off as "my dialect" when corrected, or who look down on Gaeltacht speakers, are in the wrong. That said, I don't think that speakers who don't live in a Gaeltacht have to either carefully emulate a particular Gaeltacht dialect (or something that someone else has decided is an acceptable "middle dialect") in order to be correct. If the grammar, syntax and sounds of the language are correct, everything else will follow.

Redwolf

Thank you, Redwolf. I have done some research and I can definitely confirm that Urban Irish is what we said, not what you seem to think.

If by "some of the Irish teachers I most respect (themselves native speakers)" you include Eoin Ó Conchúr, Mary McLaughlin, and Liam Ó Cuinneagáin, I can confirm that the first two are non-natives with anglicised accents, not native speakers.

The last although claiming to be a native speaker from a Gaeltacht has a rather peculiar semi-anglicised accent and makes mistakes only a non-native would make. When I first met him, he wasn't claiming to be a native speaker and the Gaeltacht was largely disfunctional though to his credit he has revitalised the area where he set up his school.

So, in effect you have been misled into believing that these anglicised Urban speakers are native speakers when they are not.

Some of us who support native Irish appreciate the efforts of these people to promote the language but take exception to their claims of being native speakers and their promotion of Urban Irish as native Irish.

Clearly Urban Irish is outside the realm of native Irish phonemes and I reiterate that we should not be actively promoting Urban on this forum. People who have hitherto pursued Urban Irish should be encouraged instead to use the native-based standard or a true native dialect. It is never too late to learn.

For those seeking a neutral standard dialect, there is Buntús Cainte, and for those seeking to raise children through Irish Gaschaint is highly recommended. If you cannot decide on a dialect from Gaschaint, try learning Connacht dialect, the geographically central dialect, as it will still give you access to each of the other dialects, as well as to the native based standard if you choose to switch later on.

Our intention is to direct people towards better Irish that will support the Gaeltacht Irish.

Mary Mc Laughlin has never claimed to be a native speaker. She began learning Irish at the age of 11...anyone who visits her website will see that.

I was not thinking of Eoin, as he is not an Irish teacher, though as someone who grew up speaking Irish, he most certainly qualifies as a native speaker in any reasonable definition of the term.

No, the people I was thinking of were Liam Ó Cuinnegáin and Éamonn Ó Dónaill.

As this forum is, apparently, dedicated only to established dialects and Buntús Cainte (something that was not, unfortunately, made clear when it was formed), it is, sadly, not something that I can continue to lend my support to. I didn't know I was signing on to Daltaí rev. 2.

Slán

Redwolf

No, you are right, Audrey. I was out of line. It is not my decision to make. The forum is for everyone to share and discuss. I apologise. I am having a bit of post-Xmas depression.

It is true that Mary hasn't ever said she was a native speaker.

Éamonn Ó Dónaill is a native speaker from Gaoth Dobhair, I believe, and Liam Ó Cuinneagáin is a respected representative of the Irish language movement.

I do feel that Urban is increasingly becoming anglicised but that is my personal opinion, not forum policy of course. I hope you can still arrive at a refined definition despite my comments.

Accepted. Let's just move on from here. There's got to be a civil way we all can discuss this.

Audrey

Benjamin · **Posted:** Sat 29 Dec 2012 3:07 am

Quote:

First of all, it has lead to a insulated bubble where people only hear an very odd non-native form of the language and end up thinking the native language is wrong and, even worse, they correct native speakers. I haven't been to Conamara much, but I was there over the summer and spoke to an old man who had been told in school that the way he spoke was incorrect. The "correct way" was, as you would guess, some made up garbage that has never been spoken by any native speaker. I met a teacher from Conradh na Gaeilge who told me that Do chuireas is a mistake, the correct way to say it is Chuir mé and that they Ulster negative particle Cha(n) was made up.

Absolute fucking bullshit! :angry:

Bríd Mhór · **Joined:** Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm **Posts:** 3001

Benjamin wrote:

Quote:

First of all, it has lead to a insulated bubble where people only hear an very odd non-native form of the language and end up thinking the native language is wrong and, even worse, they correct native speakers. I haven't been to Conamara much, but I was there over the summer and spoke to an old man who had been told in school that the way he spoke was incorrect. The "correct way" was, as you would guess, some made up garbage that has never been spoken by any native speaker. I met a teacher from Conradh na Gaeilge who told me that Do chuireas is a mistake, the correct way to say it is Chuir mé and that they Ulster negative particle Cha(n) was made up.

Absolute fucking bullshit! :angry:

It would be helpful if you clarified exactly what you disagree with.

I think Benjamin means a Conamara child should not be corrected in school for native usage. And disagrees with the teacher from Conradh na Gaeilge who criticised Ulster Irish ... correct me if I'm wrong Benjamin. :winkgrin:

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

Speaking with a Dublin accent in English but a Donegal accent in Irish would be strange

You mean Dubliners must keep their Dublin accent when speaking any language? Should they keep their Dublin accent also when speaking French, German or Spanish?

That would be strange!

Saoirse · **Posted:** Sat 29 Dec 2012 2:28 pm

Lughaidh wrote:

Quote:

Speaking with a Dublin accent in English but a Donegal accent in Irish would be strange

<br sab="779"><br sab="780">You mean Dubliners must keep their Dublin accent when speaking any language? Should they keep their Dublin accent also when speaking French, German or Spanish?

That would be strange!

I would interpret the comment as meaning Irish people can keep their own Irish accent when speaking Irish. Irish people who speak Irish do not equate Irish with foreign languages. The fact that in many cases it may be their second language does not make it a foreign language.....

Seaghan · **Joined:** Tue 06 Sep 2011 12:09 pm **Posts:** 118

Benjamin wrote:

Quote:

First of all, it has lead to a insulated bubble where people only hear an very odd non-native form of the language and end up thinking the native language is wrong and, even worse, they correct native speakers. I haven't been to Conamara much, but I was there over the summer and spoke to an old man who had been told in school that the way he spoke was incorrect. The "correct way" was, as you would guess, some made up garbage that has never been spoken by any native speaker. I met a teacher from Conradh na Gaeilge who told me that Do chuireas is a mistake, the correct way to say it is Chuir mé and that they Ulster negative particle Cha(n) was made up.

Absolute fucking bullshit! :angry:

On the contrary, I know lots of Conamara people who are under the impression that their canúint is incorrect, mostly those who have had to do exams of one kind or another. They were told so by non-native caighdeán specialists. Most native teachers in Conamara will say one thing when teaching outsiders, and then speak something else at home.

Benjamin · **Posted:** Sat 29 Dec 2012 2:58 pm

I remember a friend telling me that he got corrected in Gleann Cholm Cille for using ''cad chuige'' the teacher said ''thats snobby Irish use ''cén fáth''.

How on earth does these gobshites become teachers? :angry:

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

I would interpret the comment as meaning Irish people can keep their own Irish accent when speaking Irish. Irish people who speak Irish do not equate Irish with foreign languages. The fact that in many cases it may be their second language does not make it a foreign language.....

Irish and English are 2 different languages. The accent you use in one language doesn't work with the other, because they are different languages.
We talked about that a thousand of times.

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