Urban Irish

Breandán · **Posted:** Fri 28 Dec 2012 2:54 am

Redwolf wrote:

I totally agree that people who knowingly speak poor Irish and pass it off as "my dialect" when corrected, or who look down on Gaeltacht speakers, are in the wrong. That said, I don't think that speakers who don't live in a Gaeltacht have to either carefully emulate a particular Gaeltacht dialect (or something that someone else has decided is an acceptable "middle dialect") in order to be correct. If the grammar, syntax and sounds of the language are correct, everything else will follow.

Redwolf

Thank you, Redwolf. I have done some research and I can definitely confirm that Urban Irish is what we said, not what you seem to think.

If by "some of the Irish teachers I most respect (themselves native speakers)" you include Eoin Ó Conchúr, Mary McLaughlin, and Liam Ó Cuinneagáin, I can confirm that the first two are non-natives with anglicised accents, not native speakers.

The last although claiming to be a native speaker from a Gaeltacht has a rather peculiar semi-anglicised accent and makes mistakes only a non-native would make. When I first met him, he wasn't claiming to be a native speaker and the Gaeltacht was largely disfunctional though to his credit he has revitalised the area where he set up his school.

So, in effect you have been misled into believing that these anglicised Urban speakers are native speakers when they are not.

Some of us who support native Irish appreciate the efforts of these people to promote the language but take exception to their claims of being native speakers and their promotion of Urban Irish as native Irish.

Clearly Urban Irish is outside the realm of native Irish phonemes and I reiterate that we should not be actively promoting Urban on this forum. People who have hitherto pursued Urban Irish should be encouraged instead to use the native-based standard or a true native dialect. It is never too late to learn.

For those seeking a neutral standard dialect, there is Buntús Cainte, and for those seeking to raise children through Irish Gaschaint is highly recommended. If you cannot decide on a dialect from Gaschaint, try learning Connacht dialect, the geographically central dialect, as it will still give you access to each of the other dialects, as well as to the native based standard if you choose to switch later on.

Our intention is to direct people towards better Irish that will support the Gaeltacht Irish.

Redwolf · **Posted:** Fri 28 Dec 2012 3:43 am

Breandán wrote:

Redwolf wrote:

I totally agree that people who knowingly speak poor Irish and pass it off as "my dialect" when corrected, or who look down on Gaeltacht speakers, are in the wrong. That said, I don't think that speakers who don't live in a Gaeltacht have to either carefully emulate a particular Gaeltacht dialect (or something that someone else has decided is an acceptable "middle dialect") in order to be correct. If the grammar, syntax and sounds of the language are correct, everything else will follow.

Redwolf

Thank you, Redwolf. I have done some research and I can definitely confirm that Urban Irish is what we said, not what you seem to think.

If by "some of the Irish teachers I most respect (themselves native speakers)" you include Eoin Ó Conchúr, Mary McLaughlin, and Liam Ó Cuinneagáin, I can confirm that the first two are non-natives with anglicised accents, not native speakers.

The last although claiming to be a native speaker from a Gaeltacht has a rather peculiar semi-anglicised accent and makes mistakes only a non-native would make. When I first met him, he wasn't claiming to be a native speaker and the Gaeltacht was largely disfunctional though to his credit he has revitalised the area where he set up his school.

So, in effect you have been misled into believing that these anglicised Urban speakers are native speakers when they are not.

Some of us who support native Irish appreciate the efforts of these people to promote the language but take exception to their claims of being native speakers and their promotion of Urban Irish as native Irish.

Clearly Urban Irish is outside the realm of native Irish phonemes and I reiterate that we should not be actively promoting Urban on this forum. People who have hitherto pursued Urban Irish should be encouraged instead to use the native-based standard or a true native dialect. It is never too late to learn.

For those seeking a neutral standard dialect, there is Buntús Cainte, and for those seeking to raise children through Irish Gaschaint is highly recommended. If you cannot decide on a dialect from Gaschaint, try learning Connacht dialect, the geographically central dialect, as it will still give you access to each of the other dialects, as well as to the native based standard if you choose to switch later on.

Our intention is to direct people towards better Irish that will support the Gaeltacht Irish.

Mary Mc Laughlin has never claimed to be a native speaker. She began learning Irish at the age of 11...anyone who visits her website will see that.

I was not thinking of Eoin, as he is not an Irish teacher, though as someone who grew up speaking Irish, he most certainly qualifies as a native speaker in any reasonable definition of the term.

No, the people I was thinking of were Liam Ó Cuinnegáin and Éamonn Ó Dónaill.

As this forum is, apparently, dedicated only to established dialects and Buntús Cainte (something that was not, unfortunately, made clear when it was formed), it is, sadly, not something that I can continue to lend my support to. I didn't know I was signing on to Daltaí rev. 2.

Slán

Redwolf

mhwombat · **Joined:** Mon 29 Aug 2011 3:36 am **Posts:** 247

<-- facepalm

I love it when people use Irish, whether they speak dialect, standard, urban, or simply try to muddle along the best they can with a mixture of Irish and English.

I feel the same way about English: I love slang, patois, creole, you name it. In a few hundred years, people will probably speak a very different English than I do, and it will have been influenced heavily by people who learned it as a second language. That's fine with me!

To me, language is an art, and we are all the artists. Even the beginningest learner can make a contribution. That doesn't mean that I don't care about grammar rules or preserving dialects; I do. But if the language is to survive, it needs above all to be used. All other concerns pale in comparison.

Breandán · **Posted:** Fri 28 Dec 2012 5:15 am

Redwolf wrote:

Breandán wrote:

Redwolf wrote:

I totally agree that people who knowingly speak poor Irish and pass it off as "my dialect" when corrected, or who look down on Gaeltacht speakers, are in the wrong. That said, I don't think that speakers who don't live in a Gaeltacht have to either carefully emulate a particular Gaeltacht dialect (or something that someone else has decided is an acceptable "middle dialect") in order to be correct. If the grammar, syntax and sounds of the language are correct, everything else will follow.

Redwolf

Thank you, Redwolf. I have done some research and I can definitely confirm that Urban Irish is what we said, not what you seem to think.

If by "some of the Irish teachers I most respect (themselves native speakers)" you include Eoin Ó Conchúr, Mary McLaughlin, and Liam Ó Cuinneagáin, I can confirm that the first two are non-natives with anglicised accents, not native speakers.

The last although claiming to be a native speaker from a Gaeltacht has a rather peculiar semi-anglicised accent and makes mistakes only a non-native would make. When I first met him, he wasn't claiming to be a native speaker and the Gaeltacht was largely disfunctional though to his credit he has revitalised the area where he set up his school.

So, in effect you have been misled into believing that these anglicised Urban speakers are native speakers when they are not.

Some of us who support native Irish appreciate the efforts of these people to promote the language but take exception to their claims of being native speakers and their promotion of Urban Irish as native Irish.

Clearly Urban Irish is outside the realm of native Irish phonemes and I reiterate that we should not be actively promoting Urban on this forum. People who have hitherto pursued Urban Irish should be encouraged instead to use the native-based standard or a true native dialect. It is never too late to learn.

For those seeking a neutral standard dialect, there is Buntús Cainte, and for those seeking to raise children through Irish Gaschaint is highly recommended. If you cannot decide on a dialect from Gaschaint, try learning Connacht dialect, the geographically central dialect, as it will still give you access to each of the other dialects, as well as to the native based standard if you choose to switch later on.

Our intention is to direct people towards better Irish that will support the Gaeltacht Irish.

Mary Mc Laughlin has never claimed to be a native speaker. She began learning Irish at the age of 11...anyone who visits her website will see that.

I was not thinking of Eoin, as he is not an Irish teacher, though as someone who grew up speaking Irish, he most certainly qualifies as a native speaker in any reasonable definition of the term.

No, the people I was thinking of were Liam Ó Cuinnegáin and Éamonn Ó Dónaill.

As this forum is, apparently, dedicated only to established dialects and Buntús Cainte (something that was not, unfortunately, made clear when it was formed), it is, sadly, not something that I can continue to lend my support to. I didn't know I was signing on to Daltaí rev. 2.

Slán

Redwolf

No, you are right, Audrey. I was out of line. It is not my decision to make. The forum is for everyone to share and discuss. I apologise. I am having a bit of post-Xmas depression.

It is true that Mary hasn't ever said she was a native speaker.

Éamonn Ó Dónaill is a native speaker from Gaoth Dobhair, I believe, and Liam Ó Cuinneagáin is a respected representative of the Irish language movement.

I do feel that Urban is increasingly becoming anglicised but that is my personal opinion, not forum policy of course. I hope you can still arrive at a refined definition despite my comments.

Bríd Mhór · **Joined:** Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm **Posts:** 3001

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Quote:

A person knowingly and deliberately using poor grammar, poor pronunciation, Béarlachas, English syntax, etc., and then trying to defend it as "my dialect, and therefore OK" is one thing. I'm sure it happens, but it's certainly not something I've run across often. I'm sure that we can all agree that, if and when that happens, it's not a good thing. This hasn't been my experience with speakers of Urban Irish, however.

There are a large amount of people who do actually make a lot of errors and think these errors are dialect features. It's possible you haven't met these people and I don't think there are any on this forum (or they don't post much), but they are fairly common in Ireland itself. They usually think native Irish sounds strange and is incorrect. I know this possibly sounds unbelievable if you haven't encountered these people.

I wouldn't want people who are making a good effort think they are being included in this group because of our use of loose labels like "Urban Irish".

Exactly!

Redwolf wrote:

If the grammar, syntax and sounds of the language are correct, everything else will follow.

Very true. But the point is that people with Urban Irish are happy not to speak correct Irish. They are fluent in their "new" dialect and often look down on Gaeltacht/or properly learnt Irish. Learners who try to learn the correct pronunciation and syntax will become fluent eventually. It's proper fluency that matters not who is a native or not. God only knows I made enough mistakes and I'm a native speaker. And Braoin who has learnt lrish has much better languages skills than I do. So there you go.

Maybe Urban Irish is the future of Irish. Even bad Irish is better than no Irish at all.

Come on guys kiss and make-up. :winkgrin:

Everybody has a right to express their personal opinions.

Saoirse · **Posted:** Fri 28 Dec 2012 1:54 pm

Bríd Mhór wrote:

But the point is that people with Urban Irish are happy not to speak correct Irish. They are fluent in their "new" dialect and often look down on Gaeltacht/or properly learnt Irish.

That is not my experience, but perhaps again we are defining Urban Irish differently. I think for the sake of this discussion (and forum), we should consider refraining from using the term 'Urban Irish' until/unless actual agreement is reached about what we mean when we use it. When I have used it, I have certainly not been using it as a synonym for 'bad Irish' whereas I think others may have been. I don't believe that anyone on this forum is actively promoting 'bad Irish'. And as I don't know any more what 'Urban Irish' might mean, I'm not sure that anyone has been actively promoting that either. In fact, one of the interesting aspects of the forum is that people have been identifying when something is specific to a dialect or if it belongs to the caighdeán. I, for one, have learned a lot from that.

Where it seems to have deteriorated is when comments have taken a certain tone. That seems to have gathered a little momentum recently which has led to where we are at the moment. It began with berating the caighdeán which seemed to move on to people without Gaeltacht Irish. I didn't realise the path until I began to think more carefully after the last few days. Again, I'm not sure that anyone thought about the path and where it was leading. We are ultimately all on the same side and so we just need to remember that more often.

The other thing that I think has been true for many generations is that the people who make the big decisions regarding the future of the language are rarely daily users of Irish themselves outside of situations where they have to i.e. requirement of their job etc. Often those most dogged about what is right and wrong are not using Irish with their own children or in normal social situations. Often they have little or no understanding about the on-the-ground challenges of trying to find a speech therapist with fluent Irish for example when you live outside the Gaeltacht and perhaps, rather appallingly, even within it.

Again, I would like to reiterate that I believe that the members of this forum all actually have the same goal - to promote Irish. If that is not the goal, I can think of another forum that is ready to sign up anyone or anything. :mrgreen:

Bríd Mhór · **Joined:** Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm **Posts:** 3001

Saoirse wrote:

... perhaps again we are defining Urban Irish differently

Seaghan · **Joined:** Tue 06 Sep 2011 12:09 pm **Posts:** 118

So far as I'm concerned, any Irish is good Irish, and I'm always eager to try to help other learners perfect their accent, if they are interested, although personally speaking, I am only interested in hearing, speaking with, and learning from good native speakers from Conamara.
Also, apart from the language itself, I'm very concerned about the actual district here, as I'm not just 'passing through', or here for a short-term course.
The Gaedhealtacht, the people in it, and the language they speak are under attack from all sides, and I want to do what I can to help stem the tide.

Scooby · **Joined:** Tue 06 Sep 2011 7:18 pm **Posts:** 576

Guys, I certainly won't get into this Urban Irish debate except to say that there seems to be an overly-long discussion of same which is going nowhere. I too have got the impression over the last while that this forum is becoming more and more like Daltaí. At the same time I have noted to myself how much more civil relations have been compared to the days on the 'other side'. This is because of the people involved and it's a pity to see people falling out with each other.

I'm happy to see people aiming for language purity (I can't think how else to describe it) - but a little pissed off at being told indirectly time and time again that my Irish is not up to standard. No, it was never said directly but there seems to be a concerted effort by some people (ironically some are not even Irish people) to make those like myself who have put decades into living the language on the ground feel like their Irish is inadequate.

I went to college with some students (admittedly only a couple) who had Irish at home and who came from Gaeltacht areas. As I got to know them I began to realise that they had fairly substantial holes in their vocab, spelling and grammar - and I don't mean by CO standards. Sure, they were far better orally than me, but I was in no way intimidated by the level of language they had. Naturally enough, I've had native speakers as teachers too (and they were very good of course). They made mistakes too, as I sometimes do in English. Which makes it incredibly boring for me to hear certain forum members and go on and on about how we must strive for Gaeltacht Irish. I even agree in principle with them, but it seems to me that in discussing the topic they just want to continually applaud their own efforts and make others feel small.

What the hell is Urban Irish? - no, I'm not looking for an explanation. There's already been enough debate about this. Did someone on this forum coin the term? In all my years dealing with Irish in Ireland, I've never heard the term used. I can guarantee you before I even ask them that none of the very good teachers I work with are likely to have heard it. So, 6 pages of discussion of the term...what's that about?

By the way, the teachers I work with are quite brilliant, dedicated and knowledgeable as far as I am concerned (granted, this certainly isn't the case everywhere), despite not coming from a Gaeltacht area (with one exception) and nobody is going to tell me they aren't good enough.

An Lon Dubh · **Joined:** Fri 30 Sep 2011 10:08 pm **Posts:** 1313

The discussion on this whole thread revolves around an issue that has been a major part of the history of the language since the 12th century and particularly since the Gaelic revival. That is, what constitutes good Irish?

It's hard to know. All the current living dialects contain forms and grammatical rules that would have the old literary classes "choking on their cornflakes" as somebody on daltaí put it a few years ago. Of course the caint na ndaoine movement resolved this and most people went forward with the dialects rather than trying to emulate people like Keating. I think we'd all agree that trying to emulate 17th century authors was a bit much.

Scooby wrote:

Which makes it incredibly boring for me to hear certain forum members and go on and on about how we must strive for Gaeltacht Irish. I even agree in principle with them, but it seems to me that in discussing the topic they just want to continually applaud their own efforts and make others feel small.

I don't think that's true, I doubt anybody would say this to purposefully belittle others. Many are genuinely concerned with the way the native language is being sidelined or how people can receive an education which is entirely through Irish without learning the native phonemes. The problem is that this results in an ignorance of the traditional language, which I don't think is a good thing.

Quote:

I can guarantee you before I even ask them that none of the very good teachers I work with are likely to have heard it. So, 6 pages of discussion of the term...what's that about?

Well I do think it's an issue worth discussing even if the term we are using isn't commonly used. I think if you ignore the term itself, this debate is quite common.

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