Prepositions can be one of the difficult aspects of a language to learn. I know plenty of the basic ones, but then fall down on some that I absolutely should know. I am certain that 'Tá eagla orm' means I am afraid. I am unsure of how to develop it. For example, an mbionn eagla ort faoi rud? (NOTE: BÍONN EAGLA ORT ROIMH RUD)

A thread where simple challenges are set, answered and corrected where necessary might be beneficial. Does anyone else think it would be useful? If I am on my own, then I will happily bury my head in the sand, but if there is anyone else out there who doubts themselves from time to time (in relation to prepositions, not your place in the world or where you will go when you die etc), reply to this and we'll set something up.

On that theme, anyone who would like to focus on any aspect of the Irish language, feel free to ask for help, or better again, start a game/thread and drag others in.

(Edited to include correction from Lughaidh below.)

_________________

bíonn eagla ort roimh rud

_________________
Is fearr Gaeilg na Gaeltaċta ná Gaeilg ar biṫ eile
Agus is í Gaeilg Ġaoṫ Doḃair is binne

Grma. I am sure I knew that once, but had forgotten it. I need to be afraid of things more often so that I find more use for it!

_________________

So, I'll take it that you are all an-compordach leis na réamhfhocail and I'll just go and skulk away into the abyss of réamhfhocail-mayhem i mo aonar, liom féin, gan éinne....

I hope the rest of you are very happy in your land of réamhfhocail perfection.....

_________________

Réamhfhocail are difficult in the sense that dialects don't have a uniformed way of dealing with them-

sa bhaile/ sa mbaile, leis an mballa/ leis an bhalla...srl..

This goes back to old Irish where you had réamhfhocail that fell into cuspóireach, tabharthach and those that could be either e.g:

Modern Irish represented in brackets:

Cuspóireach/ tabharthach: ar (roimh), fo (fé/ faoi), for (ar), i (i/ sa)

Cuspóireach: amhal (mar), cen (gan), co (go/ chuige), eter (idir), fri (le/ ri),imm (um), la (le), sech (seachas), tar (trasna/ thar), tre (tré (mumhan), trí)

Tabharthach: a (as), co (le), di (de), do (do), íar (tar- éis), (s)ís (faoi- thíos, íseal, síos), ó (ó), ós (above/ thuas/ suas), oc (ag), rem/ren (roimh)

réamhfhocal + an t-alt SeanaGhaolainn:

Tabharthach + séimhiú - ón chat

Cuspóireach + urú- frisin mball

Thats why in dialects people say sa mbaile or sa bhaile- both are correct.

Modern day:

Some introduce the dative: e.g ar an gcait (GM) ar an gcat (GC).. ar an chat (GU)... ar an gcat (CO)

Some introduce the tuiseal ainmneach: go dtí (except in some parts of Munster where its in the dative/ tabharthach), seachas, gan srl...

Some réamhfhocal introduce the tuiseal ginideach like "chun", timpeall, trasna e.g chun an bhoird srl...

and some can introduce both like "roimh"/ roim (GM)/ Roim(h)is an (GM): roimh an gcathair/ roimh na cathrach srl...

Unfortunately, there is no formula in knowing how to know which goes where, just comes down to experience, practice and intuition of just knowing what seems right.

Most simple réamhfhocal follow the dative:

ag- no séimhiú after ag... ag + article- ag an gcat

ar- séimhiu (most of the time exc. ar bruach na habhann srl)... ar + article= urú, ar an mbord

as- no séimhiú... as + article= urú- as an mbróg

chuig-- no séimhiú... chuig + article= urú- chuig an mbord

de- seimhiú- de dhuine- de + article = seimhiú (Co) don chat... (GM) don gcat... you can't have two vowels together so you get do + an= do'n (older writing or don). You would think that it would follow the rule of ar an = urú, it instead follows the old Irish rule of tabharthach + Séimhiú

do- séimhiú - do dhuine- de + article= seimhiú den chat

faoi/ fé/ fá- séimhiú- faoi + article = urú- faoin gcat

i- urú- i nGaillimh, in vowels in Éirinn used to be written as i nÉirinn where the urú can be seen more clearly. i/ sa = san fharraige/ sa bhfarraige (GM) or ins an= ainmneach ins an Chathair.

idir- no séimhiú when it means among e.g idir mná (CO) (plural idir na + Dative)- idir + article= urú (in Munster not sure of CO!)

le- no seimhiú (exc.. le chéile)- le + article= leis an mballa/ bhfalla (C0, GM, GC)

ó- séimhiú- ó + article= urú- ón gcarr (CO, GC)

roimh/ roim- does and doesn't have a seimhiú depending on dialect (not sure what (CO) is)- roimh + article- roimh an gcarr (CO, GC) also tuiseal ginideach may be used

thar- séimhiú/ no seimhiú (depending on dialect). Thar + article= urú thar an ngeata (CO, GC, GM)

trí- séimhiú, trí + article= urú- tríd an ngeata

um- seimhiú- um thrathnóna

In the article plural (tabharthach) the caighdeán does not introduce the older dative ending of aibh/ ibh) it just uses the ainmneach plural:

(sorry I haven'y the English for a lot of Irish terms)

so

ar na daoine
ag na páistí

My logic for why the older dative forms haven't survived in other Gaeltachats is because of their phonetics: so

ag na daoinibh (Munster Irish pronounce-ibh/ aibh like iv, whereas aibh everywhere else would be pronounced like í- hence daoiní- my opinion might be wrong but it looks plausible.

Reamhfhocail that introduce ainmneach in (CO)

gan, go dtí, seachas- there is probably more just can't think of them off the top of my head right now

Réamhfhocal that introduce the Tuiseal Ginideach:

Used when there is a réamhfhocal + an ainmfhocal the word proceeding it will be in its Tuiseal Ginideach e.g i (reamhfhocal) + rith (Ainmfhocal) na hoiche (Ginideach of an Oiche)

There is a hell of a lot of these- all the words for because/ for (except mar- mar gheall, mar an gcéanna), all to do with time- i rith, le linn, in aimsir, ) direction ( i lár na cathrach, ar chúl an tí

I hope this helped a bit, it seems very difficult from looking at this but with a little practice (not from learning grammitical Rules) but by reading and be aware why words change- thats the best way to learn in my opinion. I don't know everything and what I have given is only my own understandings, it may have flaws- i'd be grateful if any one would like to correct them

Now to make this load of shite fun and "real" lets have a game:

Críochnaigh na habairtí so a leannas:

Bhí an cat ar an____ (an bord)
Bhí an cailín dána i dteannta___ (na buachaillí)
Chaith mé an buidéal le___ (an ball)
Phrioc/ Phioc mé na prátaí le haghaidh___ (mo mháthair)
Cuirtear pionóis ar______ (na daltaí) chun smacht a choimeád orthu

_________________

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

That's what I was going to say

An Cionnfhaolach, you could have made a bit more of an effort....
Nuair a bheidh mí nó dhó saor agam, léifidh mé go cúramach é!

_________________

_________________
Táim ag foghlaim Gaelainn na Mumhan

Tá fáilte roim nach aon cheartú!
I am a learner. Any translations offered are practice and should not be used unless confirmed.

Nuair do chonac é san is beag nachar/ nár bhris an ghol amach tríom- ní bhféadfaimís thú a dh' fhagaint it' aonair in aon chor!



Cífeadsa thú i gcionn míosa - do chac millteach leadréanach, bain triall as an gluiche ag an (n)deireadh- In the (CO) you don't but an urú on DNTLS fortunately most dialects just tell CO to feck off.







Ná bí mar sin, bain triall as an gcluiche ag deireadh mo chaca. I bet you know most of it already. Its just looks hard when you see it. But when you actually do it, its grand. Its like reading something in a grammer book where it says The dative of the imperical is blah blah blah but then you see the example and you say to yourself that's not so bad anymore.

Bhí an cat ar an____ (an bord)
Bhí an cailín dána i dteannta___ (na buachaillí)
Chaith mé an buidéal le___ (an ball)
Phrioc/ Phioc mé na prátaí le haghaidh___ (mo mháthair)
Cuirtear pionóis ar______ (na daltaí) chun smacht a choimeád orthu

_________________

Please wait for corrections/ more input from other forum members before acting on advice

1. Bhí an cat ar an____ (an bord)
2. Bhí an cailín dána i dteannta___ (na buachaillí)
3. Chaith mé an buidéal le___ (an ball)
4. Phrioc/ Phioc mé na prátaí le haghaidh___ (mo mháthair)
5. Cuirtear pionóis ar______ (na daltaí) chun smacht a choimeád orthu

1. an mbord
2. na buachaillí
3. an mball (ach leis an mball, ná fuil?)
4. mo mháthair
5. na daltaí

_________________
Táim ag foghlaim Gaelainn na Mumhan

Tá fáilte roim nach aon cheartú!
I am a learner. Any translations offered are practice and should not be used unless confirmed.