Hi again, Everybody!

I’m still doing my deep-dive of verbs, and I have a question:

I know from my research that -faidh, -fidh future tense endings in Ulster are both pronounced (hee) before most words and pronounced (huh) before personal pronouns…

And that…

-fadh, -feadh conditional endings are both pronounced (hoo) before most words and pronounced (hutt) before sé, sí, sibh, and siad.

And that…

(depending on the letter preceding the “f” in those endings) the “f” is sometimes not pronounced…

Does anyone know the exact list of those letters that trigger the “f” not to be pronounced? I’m assuming “c” must be one of them? …since pronouncing “d'fheicfeadh” as (DECK•oo) … especially in normal-paced speech, seems much more natural than (DECK•hoo).

Thank you very much to anyone who may know!

-f- /h/ is devoicing the letter preceding it.
so: -bf- /p/, -df- /t/, -gf- /k/, -bhf- /f/, -mhf- /f/
Even l,m,n,r are devoiced (so at least in Ulster)
so: -lf- /lh/, -nf- /nh/, -mf- /mh/, -rf- /rh/

But already voiceless consonants don’t change at all (i.e. the "f" is here not pronounced at all)
so: -cf- /k/, -pf- /p/, -tf- /t/, -chf- /x/

So, the answer to your question is: c, p, t, ch.

See for more details: http://www.braesicke.de/ortho.htm#fidh (in German)

GRMA, a Labhrás!

Very helpful! I used Google Translate to translate from the German site and it cleared most of it right up for me, along with your info!

One more question if you or anyone else may know:

On http://www.fuaimeanna.ie/ga/Recordings. ... idh&Page=2 Áine Ní Bhreisleáin pronounces “díobhfaidh” as (JEE•f(w)ee) … which totally makes sense and follows the above “rule” about “bhf” / “mhf” pronunciations.

But…

Then, on the same page, she pronounced “snámhfaidh” as (SNAO•hee) … which doesn’t follow said “rule” …

Do you know if that’s a random exception, or is there some kinda official “sub-rule”/exception or something?

Thanks again!

Rosie

There’s prob. no /v/ in Ulster pron. of snámh - and so there’s no /f/ in Ulster pron. of snámhfaidh

Féach: https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/sn%c3%a1mh
Ulster: /'snæu/

Ah, that would make sense. Thanks.

I listened to Áine pronounce “díobh,” and, indeed, she said it (JEE•uv), and snámh as (SNAO) …

But I wonder why, though…

It seems like “díobh” would be (JEE•oo), since a broad vowel precedes the “bh” … just like “snámh.”

I don't know the answer to that, unless áv is always áo in Ulster, but it should be pointed out that traditionally /v/ and /f/ in Irish were not the English labiodental sounds, but bilabial sounds, so the sound would have originally been not quite díov. But I think English influence has made the /v/ and /f/ labiodental in most parts of Ireland.

That’s interesting! Thanks for the insight, DJWebb2021.

Concerning Áine's pronunciation of "díobh", I wonder if that word does exist in her dialect. If it doesn't, it's possible that she uses a kind of school Irish pronunciation, ie. that doesn't follow the rules of Gaoth Dobhair dialect. To me it's not normal that díobh could be pronounced [dʒiːəv] in Ulster Irish, except if it were spelt "diaibh"... If I had to pronounce díobh in Ulster Irish I'd pronounce [dʲiːuw]...
Remember that in Fuaimeanna, Teanglann etc, speakers are asked to pronounce some words that don't even exist in their dialect... So their pronunciation is kind of improvised, they either apply the rules of their dialect or a pronunciation they've heard elsewhere, or at school with non-local teachers... (To me it's useless and misleading to ask people to pronounce words that don't exist in their dialect...).

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Ah, go raibh MÍLE maith agat, a Lughaidh! I always look forward to hearing your take on things!

I never thought about that, but it makes total sense and clears that up!

Just to be real sure I got this straight in my head for mh/bh endings in general (and sorry for the lack of IPA; I’m much better at reading it than writing it.)…

snámhfaidh — (SNAO•wee)
snámhfadh — (SNAO•hoo) (?)

scríobhfaidh — (SHKREE•oo•wee)
scríobhfadh — (SHKREE•oo•hoo) (?)

Thank you again! I’ve avoided the intricacies of verbs for a long time, but now I’m so excited about it…I’ve already learned all the present tense rules!

I was taught this (Coleraine University, with a teacher who had learnt Irish in Rann na Feirste):

scríobhfaidh "shkr'ee-fwee" (it's a bilabial f, because w+h becomes a bilabial broad f...)
scríobhfadh "shkr'ee-foo" (bilabial f again)

snámhfaidh "snae-fwee"
shnámhfadh "snae-foo". I use "ae" for a long "eh-" sound.

I think it's also possible to pronounce them as if there were no f (in certain places of Donegal) : shkr'ee-wee, shkr'ee-woo, snae-wee, hnae-woo.

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